THE CONVENT - Tonight BBC2 9pm

It was great. Am looking forward to watching the rest. I would have loved to be on it actually. I think the conversations they have with their mentors will be the best bits... I am also interested to see what Iona feels like by the end. If she still thinks she wants to be celibate I will be surprised. I liked that nun who was talking about the visitor's clothes. And I liked the younger nun who said about them lying down in the church and her realisation that it didn't matter.

Thu, 2006-06-15 11:16

#4

I enjoyed this and the one about the monastery. Good to see some "reality" TV with a little more depth than BIg Brother! As my girlfriend and I agreed, would it perhaps help Iona if she could figure out why she wanted to be celibate? Other than just the "calling from God" argument, that is... :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-15 11:50

#5

I think part of it is the confusion people make about being 'good' or 'bad'... Lots of people view Christianity being a simple dichotomy of the two... and that is why when somebody is 'born again' they often renounce the entirity of their old self, as though it is bad. The thing those nuns know is that it isn't that simple. By giving up sex and drink and all the rest it doesn't automatically make a person 'good' or give a hotline to God... It is too simple to do it that way. I don't think Iona really wants to be celibate - but I think she thinks that is the way to God. Her drunken sex in her old life is how she considers all sex, so it's not surprising she thinks of sex as something to give up... In the best outcome she could decide to not be celibate, but to only have sex with people when it is something positive for her. Too many people imagine God to be the cruel voice in their head saying, 'You are not doing well enough' or 'You have let me down' or 'No wonder bad things keep happening if you can't be good'... I doubt that is the relationship with God that these nuns have. God isn't supposed to be a judge, but for some reason he has developed as one in our society.

Thu, 2006-06-15 11:51

#6

(not just for 'some' reason - but for loads of them - particularly the way the church used to use the bible and idea of God to control the population)

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:00

#7

maddan

I thought being judge was one of God's chief responsibilities, come the revelation and all that. Or is he more like the Sentencing Guidelines Panel, and someone else does the actual judging.

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:05

#8

Hmmm, yeah... but we're so inimaginative about he might do the judging. We imagine it to be like, 'Well you once stole some chocolate, you're out.' 'You once got drunk and slept with your husband's best friend, you're out.', 'You like putting ribbons in your hair, you're out.' We still think of a Daily Mail God based on things written a very long time ago. (By 'we' feck knows who I mean)

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:07

#9

I agree with you, Fergal. I think Iona has got things the wrong way round. She is hoping to find God through celibacy, whereas really I think celibacy (or poverty or whatever) should come via a renewed spiritual faith. Not that I really "know" about such things, but this feels right to me! Personally I have mixed views about Christianity, which is why I have been finding out a little about Gnosticism recently. I can't remember who it was, but someone on the program said something about "no one being her Lord." Whereas if, like Gnostics, Christians could generally get away from this idea that God is this external, patriarchal, dictatorial force, but rather something within us all, then such aspects as "fearing" God etc would be much less of an issue. :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:14

#10

~
www.fabulousmother.co.uk

I often think it is a case of semantics, and it's the language that has confused people about the idea of God. I think many of the religions, at their core, are describing the same thing, but that their religious texts, while taken literally, are more symbolic. Even that doesn't describe what I feel about it... Iona, when she talks about sex giggles, looks shifty and calls it 'kissing boys'... if ever there was a signifier that she sees sex as 'being naughty' it's that. Maybe that's what she needs to get over. Although, I have never met her and how the hell would I know?

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:28

#11

2Lou

â€˜As God is my judgeâ€™ probably doesnâ€™t help matters. I think there is a heavenly Sentencing Guidelines Panel. It would explain the automatic discount for pleading guilty in a confessional.

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:32

#12

'as god is my judge' probably doesn't help matters... you're right there... but it is our idea of what should be judged that's the problem. I realise this comes from organised religion itself I'm not actually religious as such. My religion is something like Robinson Jeffer's. I'm not talking about organised Christianity, like Catholism, or whatever. I happen to disagree with so many of the things that are classed as sins by organised religion that there is no point in my going into it here. But those nuns - they were cool. And the way they talked about stuff was cool too.

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:33

#13

She said finding God was about 'peeling back the onion' I love that. It's funny.

Thu, 2006-06-15 12:59

#14

~
www.fabulousmother.co.uk

I think the nuns and the monks on the other program generally have a pretty sane view of their faith, God, etc - which, I suppose, is to be expected! Whatever they believe about the literality (?) of the Bible, the importance seems to be in its symbolism, including the symbolism of God, Christ, morality, etc. This, I think, is totally as it should be - and the Gnostic gospels seems to try to get across this concept also - & that God is within us all, & we all have the potential to be Christs or "Sons" of God... which is approaching Humanism, but I think is a generally very healthy view of faith/religion/spirituality. I also liked the lying on the floor thing - very good to see that these exemplars of faith admit to being able to learn from normal folk! :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-15 13:02

#15

2Lou

I wonder if the whole judging thing stems from the desire to see others judged - I mean the real nasties, 'evil' types. I wouldn't be surprised if latching on to the hope that such and such will get their comeuppance in some sort of afterlife, didn't lead to the general notion of everybody being judged. Or, of course, it could just be the whole - be good peasants or you'll fry - argument.

Thu, 2006-06-15 14:11

#16

Without sounding like a complete nutjob, I have to say that I have been considering, for quite some time, the idea of joining some kind of community (no, not a cult)... I like the idea of my daily efforts having an obvious outcome for the people around me. It's funny about the whole evil thing... I have always felt the same about it since I can remember - it could easily be me. I think we all have the capacity to do things across the whole spectrum. Sometimes it's just a matter of timing, or luck, or whatever. When the media does those witch hunts it always makes me think that people love to have an 'other' to blame, to project their own fragmented innards onto... Nobody likes to think that things they do have negative outcomes, but often they do. Big Brother is a prime example of this. I bet everyone who goes in there is much loved among their friends, and doesn't see themself as a villiain.. but they find themselves boo-ed at for talking behind other people's backs... when I bet every single person does that... it's just usually it's not recorded for people to see the extent of it. I'm in a rather contempative mood at the minute. Must be a combination of a) the Welsh countryside b) not knowing where I'm going next or if I'm going to find a proper job and c) too much time on my hands.

Thu, 2006-06-15 15:18

#17

What lovely twists and turns this conversation is taking! Big Brother Vs Evil... Such varieties of televisual "entertainment" do indeed bring out the Judge in all of us. I don't know if it is quite "Evil" to talk about people behind their backs (although perhaps with a lowercase "e"), but I would agree that people are so much more judgemental of others' actions if their is a greater degree of separation between the judge and the judged. Hence the popularity of BB! (& the like) If we are sniping at the snipers, with next to no chance of them ever getting wind of our snipery, what better way to assuage our desire to snipe? Similarly the celebrity-bashing culture... Oh how we love to hate Heather McCartney now she has (allegedly) done the dirty on our most beloved of working class (allegedly) heroes! But what do we actually know about her? Or Paul? Or a myriad other so-called celebs? How terrible and morally questionable it is for the Beckhams to flash about their great wadges of cash so flagrantly as they do... and of course, if any of us plebs were ever in possession of such riches, we would never spend it on Â£10,000 watches or diamond-studded PSP's or whatever... we'd give it all to charity immediately... :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-15 15:36

#18

We talk about 'giving things up' but my experience of 'giving up' has been about slowly discovering something. If we open our hearts to whatever we understand 'God' to be (whether it be the spirit of humanism or something within us or Lord Krsna or Whom/Whatever) the obstacles to God are removed by Him. The term 'giving up' implies 'loss' when in fact it is all about gain. What we need to 'give up' is an individual thing. As Ferg points out, Iona obviously sees sex as something 'a bit naughty'. Our sins are tailor made as is our deliverence (IMHO) . Living in a community is really worthwhile but an enormous challenge. Egos can be as rampant in community as anywhere else!

Thu, 2006-06-15 15:48

#19

>>> Our sins are tailor made as is our deliverence (IMHO) ...therefore when we speak of Judgement (capital "J" intended), is it not more relevant to speak of judging ourselves, rather than being judged by an external God? Or, if you like, being judged by our "inner" God... which surely is a more challenging concept to reconcile that putting our "salvation" in the hands of one other than ourselves - which could be seen as passing the buck! (cf. Catholicism Catholicism Catholicism) :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-15 16:29

#20

'Oh how we love to hate Heather McCartney now she has (allegedly) done the dirty on our most beloved of working class (allegedly) heroes!' It's funny really, becaues nobody I know cares either way about Heather Mills McCartney... but to read the papers you'd think it the public is up in arms. I am not up in arms. Nobody I know is up in arms. I reckon, if I was famous, I would never think that opinions of me in the press was how everybody felt. Or, even if it was, as long as I knew the truth about me (and everyone has some pretty nasty skeletons in their closet methinks) that would be okay. Problem with looking for outside confirmation of one's greatness means one's self esteem always relies on the opinions of others... that is dangerous and fragile. Cor blimey. Wish they'd sent me to the convent. I could well do with some quiet contemplation, living in poverty, relying on ritual - WAIT THERE...

Thu, 2006-06-15 16:46

#21

"...therefore when we speak of Judgement (capital "J" intended), is it not more relevant to speak of judging ourselves, rather than being judged by an external God? "" Reminds me of an episode of Red Dwarf, "The Inquisitor". The Inquisitor travels time and space deleting those who have lived worthless lives. Your judge in your trial is yourself! I was thinking deeply about Judgement last year as I lay in hospital facing an operation that had a small but significant chance of killing me. Firstly I didn't want the chaplains visit. Absolution, getting it all wiped out at the the 11th hour, reduced sentence for pleading guilty in confession- it doesn't work that way. I had an intense sense of 'ownership' of the way I had chosen to live my life and being accountable for it and strangely I didn't feel any regret. There was an inkling in my mind about hell and somehow having to pay for my sins but I just couldn't bring myself to believe it at gut level. Secondly, there was an enormous chasm between the things I thought were sins and those that the Church said were sins. That sex within marriage for the procreation of kids is the only good sex is the biggest pile of steaming hippo wank I've ever heard. In my heart of hearts I know my place is with my fella whether or not I marry him. Living in sin didn't feature on my sin list! I actually felt alright and slept quite peacefully! I didn't die obviously, but I know now that I am ready for it! j

Thu, 2006-06-15 16:58

#22

Hippo wank made me smile, j, but maybe Wildebeest wank has a better ring to it. We're all ready for it - I blame the weather :O)

Thu, 2006-06-15 18:48

#23

I think organised religions tend to use 'God' as angry mothers used to use their husbands... " Just wait 'till your father gets home!" I'm not convinced anyone can know much more about God than we can ourselves. People like George Bush who say they talk to God everyday make we want to ask them "Yes, but does God Answer?" Whether you believe in Christ, Buddha, Khrisna, Jehova or Mazda the light is inside us not in churches or books or even popes. There are guidelines and maybe manuals but that's all and you usually KNOW when something is right or wrong it's just that you don't want it to be so.

Thu, 2006-06-15 19:57

#24

Pepsi's comment mentioning the woman who said "... no-one is my Lord." reminded me of a funeral i recently attended where a Catholic priest was holding a service in which he said "...and we will all get our chance to accept the Lord." Now, at the time, it seemed to easy to me. All you have to do is wait until you die and accept Christ and you will be saved? Later I realised that so many people nowadays are so full of arrogance and hubris that they will simply be unable to do it. After all, your basic self-preservation mode lie isn't going to cut it and you will need to say yes with your whole heart. It made me chuckle to imagine them all in some spirtual Thatcherville arguing with Maggie about who should be in charge and who should do what as the place becomes ever more hellish by the minute :O)

Thu, 2006-06-15 21:25

#25

I've just had a thought... about forgiveness and all that gubbins... We are told that Jesus forgives us, God forgives us and suchlike... Maybe ultimately, in the End, when we are no longer of this Earth and stripped bear to our souls, being forgiven of all our sins by The Ultimate Redeemer means that there is nowhere else to look but to ourselves, within, to find resolution and absolution for how we have lived our lives, and Jesus/God doesn't take away our sins and make everything better, but rather takes away our ability to look to anywhere but within...?? Erm... or something... We won't be saved by Christ, in the End, but rather He (whatever the metaphorical HE is) will free us of all our worldly comforts, and we will have no choice but to closely and painfully examine our raw, exposed souls, warts and all. (I'm having some funny old thoughts these days......) :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-15 21:41

#26

I think you are close, Pepsi, but I get the impression it's more that your eyes are opened and you suffer the agony of judging your whole life. A bit like remembering what you did the night before when you were pissed and realising in the cold light of dawn what a total prat you made of yourself... multiplied by a million - the difficulty is in forgiving yourself!

Fri, 2006-06-16 08:43

#27

Well yes, I suppose it depends on whether or not one believes in the afterlife or somesuch. I think perhaps both apply...? :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Fri, 2006-06-16 09:55

#28

styx

' A little more depth than Big Brother' I wasn't aware it had any. I'd better start watching it.

Fri, 2006-06-16 10:09

#29

When I say "a little more," I refer to the difference between a petri dish and a sub-oceanic trench. :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-22 10:00

#30

PART 2 Last night What did you think...some heavy stuff. I think the women are in the pre-stages of stepping out of their self-obsession. At least beginning to recognise things in themselves. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Thu, 2006-06-22 12:00

#31

Self-obsessed. Hmm, yes. I suppose that's why they decided to go on the programme. (A) because they wanted to do something about their self-obsession; and (B) (the more cynical explanation) because they wanted a bit of cheap fame. Whatever their initial reasons for going into the convent, though, it does genuinely seem to be changing them. I intermittently feel really sorry for Debi and think, "for God's sake, stop crying all the time!" She said she wanted Jesus to declare His presence in a less scary way. I don't think Jesus leaves Post-It notes... And I take it she doesn't want him knocking on her window in the middle of the night and saying, "I'm here!"...? Joking aside, though, I do sympathise with her, being someone who has had a couple of weird, freak-out supernatural moments myself - not involving The Man Himself, but where one just knows a conscious spiritual entity has decided to pay a visit. Until you have experienced this sort of thing personally, I think you can't possibly know how scary it can be... initially. The key, though, as Sister wassername said, is acceptance. No way is Iona going to do this celibacy thing! For life?! Just can't see it myself... So anyway, yes, another good show... but Angela and Victoria are so naughty! :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-22 14:58

#32

I have since discovered that Iona decided as a teenager to save sex for marriage, and has stuck to it... the kissing boys metaphor wasn't a metaphor at all, but a literal description of what she did. I loved it last night. I don't know whether 'self obsession' is the right word for what they are stepping away from. They are learning about not hiding behind all the many trappings they usually do... such a great programme.

Thu, 2006-06-22 15:22

#33

It's good to see a programme which seems genuine + genuinely spiritual + in a popular evening slot... hopefully a sign of changing perceptions of the viewing public...? :-) * P * :-) ( Read my blog! - www.oddcourgette.blogspot.com )

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Thu, 2006-06-22 16:37

#34

I suposse 'self obsessed' was a bit harsh. Any spiritual journey has to start with ourselves, discovering our faults and failings. I just hope that the experience of community living enables their journeys to move beyond the 'What do I feel right now' !

Fri, 2006-06-23 09:48

#35