Why are things so difficult?

Because life is rubbish at times. What's up Styx?

because we think they are?

Because, otherwise, anybody could do them.

Perhaps the question you should be asking isn't 'Why are things so difficult?' but rather 'Why does difficulty cause me pain?' Super Mario Brothers: The Lost Levels is very very difficult, but that difficulty doesn't hurt - it's integral to the game's appeal. Perhaps some of life's difficulties feel so excrutiatingly painful because we identify too closely with them and we cling to one of many possible outcomes as the only one that will make us happy.

Is that a convoluted way of saying "Am I bothered?"

Life would get very, very boring if everything was 'easy' all the time. Imagine never having to struggle, or to triumph over odds, or call on your inner reserves to 'get you through', or use your wisdom to solve a problem. How much would we ever learn about ourselves or the workings of the world if we never had to pit ourselves against them? Difficulties make one appreciate life more, in those lucid moments when life is wonderful. And, speaking just for me, life IS wonderful; far more wonderful than being dead.

I think struggle can be equally boring, AG. All your examples are of pitting oneself against a problem and brilliantly overcoming it - what about the times when you attempt something, and for whatever reason fail? What about when someone feels down and thinks 'Oh God, not this *again*!' Also, difficulties don't always make a person appreciate life more - sometimes they can make a person fearful, and afraid that they'll return to that painful experience. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from on this, and I do think what you say is valid to an extent - positivity is definitely a big, big asset in life, and I'm sure that difficulties present an *opportunity* for learning and growth, although I don't believe that one necessarily learns or appreciates life more as a result of every negative experience. Life can be very, very hard, but not all of us feel it equally or over the same situations. In paying attention to your suffering and pain, I believe you can definitely learn a great deal, and find deep, abiding peace, but let's not mince our words here - it *is* pain, and it can really, really hurt. Learning from it doesn't stop the pain, it just uses it for fuel.

And I agree with you, Rokkit, wholeheartedly about pain/suffering and whatnot. People *do* deal with it differently, and struggling forever does get awfully tiresome (I feel this way about the words 'still can't afford a mortgage'). My point was that difficulty isn't necessarily a bad thing; and even our so-called 'failures' are fuel for growth, as you said. But I try to put a positive spin on things, because people don't need to hear that life is shit, and full of pain; they already know that. What they need to hear is that things do get better, but that one must sometimes struggle to make it so. One has to believe it to be possible before it can be made to manifest.

I used to think I knew the answer to this. Things are difficult because I consistently screw them up. Then after I stopped screwing things up in such a cataclysmic way I thought the answer was, 'Things are difficult because it takes time to recover from all the years of consistently screwing things up.' Today, I'm inclined to believe that things will become less difficult as I adjust my attitude to my external circumstances rather than things will become less difficult as the external circumstances themselves change. M Scott Peck wrote " Life is difficult. This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we truly see this truth, we transcend it. Once we truly know that life is difficult--once we truly understand and accept it--then life is no longer difficult. Because once it is accepted, the fact that life is difficult no longer matters." I find this a hideous over-simplification and wouldn't tell a starving man caring for his disabled son on the streets of Mumbai that acceptance is the answer. But speaking for myself and myself only, I have found some truth in this. When The moment I accept my difficulties from my heart, and that means when I stop fantasizing about how they might otherwise be. something inside me shifts and I find the difficulty a little easier to bear. None of this answers your question...WHY. Your difficulty is equated to pain and suffering as I am sure you were not refering to the Nintendo game! The 'problem of evil' has always baffled. I quite like the theory postulated by Saint Iranaeus. Wheras Augustine and others maintained that God made a perfect world and it all went wrong (the Fall and all that). Irenaeus thought that God was partly responsible for evil, in the sense that God created humans imperfectly, in order that they could develop into perfection later. Moreover, the world has to be imperfect. If it were a paradise (the hedonistic paradise) in which there was no evil and suffering, then humans would not be free to choose, since only good could actually occur. Similarly, without the existence of evil and suffering, humans would be able to develop qualities such as love, honour or courage,and would thus lose the opportunity to develop into God’s likeness. Nice theory. I don't believe it though! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Well, one of the things the Buddha said about suffering was that it is comprised of 'two darts'. If we take the case of a stubbed toe, the first dart is the actual physical pain we experience when we stub our toe - it hurts, and unless we're pumped up on painkillers or have some physiological condition that means we have no sensation in our feet, no amount of life experience or spiritual maturity can prevent that hurt. The second dart is our reaction to this pain - our anger at this perceived injustice, our unhappiness at feeling the pain, etc. The Buddha said that the latter dart is a consequence of clinging, and that, if we learn to let go, we need not experience the discomfort it brings. I've tested this with little things, like itches, and it works - if, instead of thinking 'Oh, bloody hell, the centre of my back really itches and I can't reach it', I simply concentrate on the itch and don't try to push it away, it no longer becomes unpleasant - it's simply information. With things of greater import, like being upset, sometimes I've done the same thing - 'Oh, I'm just upset' and concentrated on that feeling, and suddenly it's no longer unbearable; sometimes, in fact, it becomes interesting and makes me feel very alive and grateful.

The Buddha's teachings are fantastic, especially those addressing the impermanent nature of everything. I think one of the issues with peoples' struggling is that they forget that things *do* change. It's much too easy to feel that whatever place one is at, *at that period in time*, is a permanent state, and therefore there is 'no way out': this is a major hurdle with depressive people. I feel like this on occasion, especially when the purse is empty, and I have to keep reminding myself that, yes, things are tough *now*, but won't always be so. Perhaps being positive simply helps more positive things happen...?

Lots of things aren't that difficult. In fact, I'd say most things are pretty easy. I managed to get up 2 hours earlier than usual and make myself a cup of coffee this morning without breaking a sweat. It's just that you just have to do so much, all the time, that some of it is bound to be unexpectedly tricky. There's also the problem that when you do come across a short series of problematic encounters, the tendency is to feel that your whole life, up to that point, has been a series of such encounters. You forget everything in between. I think there's a problem with perspective as well. Our cultural awareness of epic fantasy struggles and worldwide warfare/disaster puts us firmly among the kids-who've-got-it-easy on this scale of things. We know getting to work on time and battling gamely through the day after a poor night's sleep wouldn't make for exhausting drama on the screen, so I think there's a part of us that feels shamefully weak for not being able to play a dull bit-part with any kind of efficiency. So, I guess what I'm saying is that we almost don't want to accept that things are difficult. We want to believe that they're easy - or should be easy - and that there's instead some inate flaw, or failing - some problem that can be fixed in ourselves - that is preventing us from breezily achieving whatever we set out to do. On top of that, I think there's a kind of social intolerance towards moodiness. We're all supposed to be, if not happy, cool-headed and laid back. When people lose their tempers, or moan, or sulk, it immediately gets labelled as childish behaviour, despite the fact that these are all things adults do. I didn't really understand what Rokkitnite was on about until he got to ''Oh, I'm just upset' and concentrated on that feeling, and suddenly it's no longer unbearable". This is another point that immediately leapt to my mind, albeit in a different form - I find the best way to combat negative emotion is to accept it rather than try to reject it or overcome it. There's nothing wrong with being miserable or frustrated. It happens. It's just an experience. Odd that Tim has sort of reached the same conclusion via zen though, because I was recently arguing about this with another Buddhist on a train the other day, and his interpretation seemed to be more about pretending that the pain wasn't importan or relevantt. A sort of zoning out. Oo - quick plug. My Woe's Woe project, as unsubtly advertised in my signature, is a sort of attempt to catalogue and define different kinds of suffering, principally because I've always appreciated the feeling that you get when you realise something that you thought was specifically *your* problem is actually quite common. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

Why do so many people resort to some kind of religious explanation/reasoning for these scenarios? Anyone in this country that thinks life is hard is a tad self-pitying. Britons are among the top 5% of wealthy people on earth, with all the mod-cons available to make life easy. That doesn't mean there's no 'personal' hardship, whether physical, mental or fiscal, but compared to those living in third world countries, there is no hardship at all in Britain. Why religion has to come into it completely baffles me. Is it because people can't work out their problems without a crutch to support them?

not all religion is a crutch. many people have religion in their life as a way of addressing the reality of the Universe as it is, not how they wished it was. Buddhism is a prime example of that... it's basically about accepting that everything changes by nature, and that once you accept that, or at least begin to, nothing seems so hard. So, I think that in the West, in this country, we have a white-wash opinion of Religion, purely because we always hear about the things done 'in the name of religion' rather than how it is used and lived with everyday amongst families and communites.

'Why religion has to come into it completely baffles me. Is it because people can't work out their problems without a crutch to support them?' I presume you're using 'crutch' in the perjorative sense there, Missi. Do you begrudge someone with a twisted ankle using one? I think some people genuinely do need support when dealing with their problems. In any case, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by religion, but I guess you're refering to airy-fairy sophistry that imposes some kind of imaginary framework around the world to make everything seem a little more bearable. For my part, if a little make-believe helps someone from feeling like they want to top themselves, I'm all for it. There's not a lot of evidence to suggest that, after certain basic life-preserving provisions are met, wealth makes a person happier, so citing it as a basis for why we all should be happy rather ignores the plain facts - mod cons do not make humans happier. In fact, I read a study which showed that, one year on, the happiness of lottery winners was the same, on average, as tetraplegics one year on from their accident.

Religion comes into it because, historically (before the invention of the self help book), most pontificating on the difficulties of life was done under the auspices of religion.

Yes.. but that's what people have done *with* religion rather than religion itself. It goes without saying that 'in the name of religion' millions of terrible things have happened and continue to happen. But it is also true that religion itself, whatever that word blimmin means, is to do with us and our place in the Universe... I think one of the problems is the semantics of the language... people get so caught up in it. We tend to think of religion as a hocus pocus, unintelligent, easy answer heal-all. But many 'religious' people are thinking very deeply about all sorts of things, and while I am not particulary happy to think of things done, and sitll being done, in the name of religion - especially by people in power to those not in power - I am not happy to wipe the word 'religion' away with a napkin and have done with it. We have a tendency, now, in this country to get all our thoughts from the news, rather than look into anything in too much detail. I think this is a shame. But

It's like anything... when powerful people get hold of it, they can use it to do what they like...

(that looked like I was responding to Dan, but I wasn't. I was responding to the sneer at religion)

There's a good Taoist tale called 'The Vinegar Tasters' that deals with the apparent sourness of living. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennet

Most things are easy for most, breathing, walking etc, it's just some tasks we find difficult, so they play more on our minds giving us the impression life is hard. As has been pointed out GB has nothing to moan about in the hardship stakes, there are far worse of countries than our own. On the other hand, life is only as hard as you know. It's difficult for a single mum on an inner city estate to see herself as privilaged. Someone who needs to find the latest labels for her son who's edging towards skullduggery, while trying to keep food in the cupboards and a roof over their heads. All the time, during her two lowly paid jobs per day, she's encountering people earning a fortune. She may feel hard up. It may not be how it should be, but it is. I also agree with what Jude was saying, sometimes if you just accept thing aint easy it's easier, a lot of the stress goes. nobody

My original response, is of course the response of a theist. In detached scientific mode I might have spoken about competition, natural aggression, resource limitations. A sociologist may have talked about the evils of Capitalism. An atheist may have just said, "They just are difficult there is no reason." or would have dismissed the question as irrelevant. I can only offer the musings of somebody who has a belief in some kind of Power, call it 'God' for ease. Having a belief is not a 'crutch' since God does not come in a blinding flash to pay my phonebill and remove all my problems! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

In my athiest, normal human mode...I've found that things are generally as hard as you make them. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

My 'religion' comment was an observation following the exchange between Jude and Tim who both introduced religious elements into the discussion. My feelings about religion are exacerbated by the claims made on an almost daily basis that those commiting atrocities in the name of one religion or another are mis-interpreting their 'holy' books. Well as far as I'm concerned it makes no damned difference what the 'book' says, I judge religion on the way it's practised, and it's pretty evil in some parts of the world, and sinister in the rest. I didn't say wealth makes people 'happier', in fact I didn't use that word in any context. I said it makes life 'easier', and that's a fact, it DOES, if for no other reason than it allows choices, choices unavailable to the poorer. Hayley, I assume it was my remarks you read as a 'sneer' at religion. I don't sneer at any religion, I think they are far too powerful and controlling for sneers. Religion may not be a crutch for you, Jude. I know that you're one of the last people on earth that would need a crutch, but it IS for many millions, mostly the poor, uneducated and disenfranchised.

"I said it makes life 'easier', and that's a fact, it DOES, if for no other reason than it allows choices, choices unavailable to the poorer." It's hard to argue that money *doesn't* make life easier, but I'm still not following you logic here, since I'd say choices make life harder. Having choice automatically puts pressure on you to make the best choice, and you end up feeling that pressure all the time. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

'Religion may not be a crutch for you, Jude. I know that you're one of the last people on earth that would need a crutch' Gosh you have far more confidence in me than I have in myself. I spent a good deal of my life leaning on useless crutches and generally running away! I hope things have at least begun to change. Faith has never been a crutch for me, neither has God. But religion, now that is a different matter! That comment cheered me up anyway. Thanks! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I don't think money makes life easier. It makes buying a Porsche easier. Having money adds complications to your life that poor people don't have. Generally speaking of course... I don't have a Porshce though...I may not be qualified. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

money brings a different set of problems certainly, but you deal with those problems in warmth and with a well fed security. As I said at the top, life is rubbish sometimes. You just get on with it.

* .. I'm still not following you logic here, since I'd say choices make life harder.. * Well I'd say that the 2000 or so old people who die of cold every winter because they can't afford to heat their homes would welcome the option a choice would give them, and it would not only make their lives easier, it would actually allow them to live it. * Having money adds complications to your life that poor people don't have * I'm not aware of too many monied people who avoid complications in their lives by divesting themselves of their wealth.

I think it's certainly possibly for a wealthy person to be just as fraught, antagonised and miserable as a poorer person, definitely, and a great number of wealthy people are probably a lot less happy than a great number of poorer people. If someone's in a terrible state, it's not good enough to simply tell them, 'You're fine. There are people a lot worse off than you.' But I also think it makes a difference when you know there's a sort of safety net. When you know that you're not likely to go hungry or lose your home. And, of course, it's difficult to understand how much wealthier people might overdramatise their minor problems in the absence of more serious ones. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

"Well I'd say that the 2000 or so old people who die of cold every winter because they can't afford to heat their homes would welcome the option a choice would give them, and it would not only make their lives easier, it would actually allow them to live it." I don't think that's got anything to do with choice. They're lacking a basic necessity. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe Just to avoid me (and

Jon, choice only becomes a problem when the person presented with one can't/won't/ doesn't know how to make one. For most people it's a no-brainer. You may see it as lacking a basic necessity, and I dare say they do as well, but given the choice of heating their homes how many wouldn't? Which ever way you want to look at it the option of turning it off means they have a choice, and 'wealth' gives them that choice.

Missi, if someone sticks a gun in your back and tells you to give them your money, would you say you're giving them that money out of choice? I don't think it counts as a choice at all if you have to turn the heating on or die of the cold. Denying someone that isn't denying them the luxury of a choice - it's denying them what they *need*. Because, as you say, who wouldn't choose to turn the heating on? Or, look at it this way. If the heating company has a monopoly, and decides to start charging people far, far more than it needs to, they might argue that the customer has the 'choice' to not receive their services if they don't want to pay for them. But it's a spurious argument - choice means that they have more than one *realistic* option. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

Miss>I'm not aware of too many monied people who avoid complications in their lives by divesting themselves of their wealth. I'm one. Life is a bit easier as a result. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

* ..I don't think it counts as a choice at all if you have to turn the heating on or die of the cold... * Well you're wrong. The choice in that scenario is death from freezing or death from starvation, (as a result of spending the cash on the heating). But you're right, your argument IS spurious, choice isn't about 'realism' at all. Those that jumped from the WTC made the choice between being splattered on the concrete below or burning above. Not much of a choice I admit, but a choice nevertheless. That it was a choice is borne out by the fact that almost 3000 died but only a small percentage jumped. Emma, I'm not really sure what a humanist is, though I have claimed to be in the past. (No, I haven't watched the video as Gervais makes me want to throw up.) Denver, I wouldn't know whether you were previously 'wealthy' in the accepted meaning of the term ie. pretty much obscenely rich, or just comparatively wealthy eg. most people in civilised countries. I also suspect that if what you say is true, you stopped short of impoverishing yourself. Well actually I KNOW you didn't do that. You have an expensive camera among your many toys, and poor people can't afford such extravagancies.

George, I recall reading somewhere about why people would jump from a burning sky-scraper. The basic theory was something to the effect of it being the last measue of control over their fate. Several photographs were circulated after 9/11 showing these people in their fall, and some were actually clasping their hands in the way a corpse may be arranged at a funeral, their bodies straightened, at rest, as if they were preparing themselves for death during the descent. A gruesome thought, an even more gruesome reality. Wealth...This is a tricky topic and I'm not sure I want to go here, something is bound to be fodder...but still, an interesting discussion and worthy of exploring. I wouldn't know where the dividing line of what the accepted meaning of "wealthy" is and isn't. I also won't discuss my finances in public, but for the purpose of this discussion I would consider someone wealthy if they could live secure for the remainder of their life without making another cent. Today...I can't do that but there was a time not too long ago when I could say that I could. Part of this thread revolves around religion and another part around wealth. I don't practice religion, I used to practice wealth, so I know some of the complications it can bring. The old saying that money can't buy happiness is fairly true from my perspective. I've received nothing but grief in my life as a result of having money. Do I now struggle for food, a roof and heat in my home? Nope. I can say that I am happy to live more modestly than I once did. Fewer problems as a result of less money is a reality for me. I think Mississippi is a Humanist, even if he doesn't admit to it. I know that I am, and I freely admit to it. Oh, I gave that expensive camera away btw...by doing so, I've received far more than it was worth in return. Gifts always seem to be good investments...hmmm...yep...very true. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Aren't most arguments in this forum are from a humanist perspective? OK, Missi, I'll put it this way: beyond having the 'choice' to live rather than die in a variety of ways, the choices wealth brings tend to involve stress. That's not to say poor people are better off, but it does suggest that money simply brings a different set of problems to gnaw your nails over and doesn't actually make you happy. ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

I have no idea what the answer is, and because I have lactated my brain away, I am not even going to attempt it, but it's SO good to see the site rocking again! Missed ya all

rachel! Hooray! How the devil are you? Yes the site seems to be up and bubbling at the moment. Hurrah!

Hey Rachey! It's great to see your name on a post again. Stop all that bloody lactating and join in here, the forum needs you. * ...the choices wealth brings tend to involve stress... * Jon, I'd almost guarantee that stressing over how to feed the kids, pay the rent, pay the utility bills, afford a dentist (if you can find one that does NHS), and clothe the family is a MILLION times more stressful than worrying about which fashion designer is in vogue, is Gstaad preferable to Cannes, Mercedes v Roller, The Ivy or The Savoy, Henley or Long Island, blah blah blah. I'm 100% certain I'd rather cope with the stress of untold wealth than the stress of poverty. People who would agree include, Bill Gates, McFartney, Jagger, Branson, Murdoch, Schumacher, Trump, I could go on for ever but there's no point. None of those have as yet impoverished themselves because they can't take the stress of being wealthy. I doubt they will any time soon. I do however agree that happiness is not wealth related, but then I didn't say it was.

Untold wealth would certainly be less stressful. However untold wealth is rare and people tend to adapt their circumstances to a constant level of risk, thus the man who could easily afford several small town houses is mortgaged to the hilt in order to buy a mansion in the country. Loss of income still means he will lose his home. Life doesn't get any easier with money because our aspirations grow with our horizons. What does change is the safety net, a rich man is a unlikely to mess up so bad that he will starve or freeze to death at winter. But the difficulty of things is not a factor of risk, or the dangers should we fail, but of our preception of those dangers. A rich man has further to fall and may, perversely, be even more scared of failure than iof he was poor, ergo the rigors of life are more painful.

rachey!!!! hellloooooooo

*feels all popular and preeny* Hellllllooooooooooooooooooooooo Have wriggly Lil on knee deperate for outing to Bird World (pondering question of why is it all so difficult - it's not so bad here). Speak later

What an interesting debate I’ve been missing! First thing I noticed is that Styx hasn’t been back since starting the thread… you alright, Styx? Did you intend to start a debate or did you have something more personal on your mind? Moving on to some comments… PJ: “God does not come in a blinding flash to pay my phonebill” … brilliant, PJ! Quote of the thread, methinks. Regarding Missi’s comments on the evils that have arisen from Religion (capital “R” intended)… Religion is evil, politicians are evil, big business is evil… what’s left? Isn’t it just that anything with the capacity for power and control has the capacity for evil? All of the above can do a great deal of good (yes, even politicians!), but sadly we tend to mostly notice the evil… On the “Wealth Makes You (More Likely to be) Happy” debate… Wealth may make life “easier”… but if you are unhappy, the “easiest” things can be difficult. Unhappiness is relative. We can’t possibly understand the nature of a person’s unhappiness unless we have “walked a mile in his shoes.” We do have more choices these days (and the number of choices is exponentially increasing). Choices imply complexity which inevitably implies difficulty – if one has more choices, it’s bound to be more difficult to make a choice. Whether this increased difficulty generally makes us more unhappy is a different matter. How often do we hear people say, “Oh for an easy life!” or words to that effect? I remember watching a programme about a man in Africa who lived in a corrugated steel hut, and he was so happy to finally get a proper concrete floor. I sometimes find the amount of information one has to sift through to even do something like buy a new mobile phone depressing – OK, at least I have the means to buy that mobile phone… but I certainly don’t think that having more choices increases the potential for happiness. CC: “money brings a different set of problems certainly, but you deal with those problems in warmth and with a well fed security” … If you are unhappy, you feel cold and hungry. Depression can be the deepest, coldest pit than anything the “real” world has to offer. Maddan: “the difficulty of things is not a factor of risk, or the dangers should we fail, but of our perception of those dangers" … Agreed. Happiness/unhappiness is an internal, mental state. External, physical circumstances do not necessarily bear any relation to what is going on inside our minds. Perception is all. I was going to say a whole load of stuff about religion, but I think I’ve said enough in this post! Just to finish, I’m curious, RD, about your “divesting of wealth”… I don’t expect you to go into details about your financial circumstances, but would you mind saying a little bit about what you have done, in respect of this, and why? ~PEPS~ “Underlay is overrated."

Peps... My answer was in my earlier post. Euphamistically speaking, I leapt from a burning sky-scraper. Why? It was my last measure of control over my fate. During my fall, I came to peace with it. When I hit bottom, I was born again. Today, that world doesn't exist for me. nuff said. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

OK... well good to hear you've had some sort of epiphany which has improved your life... good luck to you with it, RD! ~PEPS~ “Underlay is overrated."

Untold wealth lol... your standard of living rises; you get to suffer in comfort. Pain, pleasure, anger, elation, frustration, love! They're all just chemical reactions. Some people are born and live with higher levels of dopamine, some have to live with depleted serotonin. The environment we live in may aggrevate or alleviate these conditions. Perception follows those reactions and determines how we adapt to our environment. Hyperreality is glossy, the result of the sickly glare of capitalist ideology. Ha! The amount of people I see grinning through clenched teeth. get down the dentists...they do them gum guards. There's nothing more mind-teasing than the incomprehensible eagerly avowed - Dennet

* ...people tend to adapt their circumstances to a constant level of risk, thus the man who could easily afford several small town houses is mortgaged to the hilt in order to buy a mansion in the country... * Seems to me that this hypotheitical guy has all the choices he can handle. if he CHOOSES to mortgage himself to the hilt then he's volunteered for the stress that goes with it. He had no need to take it on. Every now and then I see reports in the newspapers about some old hermit that lived in a shack with cardboard windows and wearing clothes any self-respecting scarecrow would refuse to don. They make the news because they have spent their life living in what appears to most people to be poverty. they leave millions to a cats home. Whether they lived in those circumstances because they couldn't face the stress of living in Virginia Water or because they don't possess a map showing where it is makes no difference. It is STILL a free choice, and they have made it. Haemorrhoid, you twat, the question is does wealth make life EASIER, not happier? It plainly does and to argue otherwise is silly. Oh, and I wouldn't bother to disect the problems of depression with CC, cos she knows more about it than you ever could, as usual you're out of your depth.

"Jon, I'd almost guarantee that stressing over how to feed the kids, pay the rent, pay the utility bills, afford a dentist (if you can find one that does NHS), and clothe the family is a MILLION times more stressful than worrying about which fashion designer is in vogue, is Gstaad preferable to Cannes, Mercedes v Roller, The Ivy or The Savoy, Henley or Long Island, blah blah blah." Well, yeah. But those are caricatures. Personally, all the money I have in the world at the moment has been put aside for next month's rent - beyond that, all I have is a couple of hundred pounds left of my overdraft. And things are *relatively* stress-free at the moment. Similarly, the boys my age I talked to in Ethiopia when I stayed in Gondar were hard-up, and aspired to do better, but weren't stricken with anxiety about (don't get the impression I'm Super-Hippy - I was mostly tagging along with someone who'd lived out there for a year). Now, compared to the Ethiopians, your council estate family are extremely wealthy - and yet they have a harder time of it. Sure, the Ethiopians are at risk of disease and food shortages. But they were genuinely happy for much of the time. Now, your Cannes-or-Mercedes-dilemma-stricken character obviously has so much wealth that what they actually spend it on isn't a problem. They can get both. But between the Ethiopians and them, I reckon the stress level is barely related to money - as Dan says, whatever your income, it's how you end up making use of it. A couple who end up having a family and taking out a mortgage when they can barely afford it are going to end up stressed - but then so is Dan's wealthier dude who plunges his money into investments. You argue that the latter has made a choice to take risks, but by the same argument, your council estate family has made the choice to live beyond their means. If they'd stayed childless and shared a rented flat somewhere they could probably be fairly careless with a lot of their money. Now, *I* would argue that neither ends up where they are because of a simple choice. You don't say, "Oh, I think I'll live beyond my means" one day. It's true you have an element of control over it, but most human beings just aren't wise, strong enough of will or cunning enough to avoid drifting in that direction. As soon as you start earning more money there turns out to be something bigger that you have to buy that you would previously have considered a luxury but suddenly find may be a necessity. I feel I'm living relatively comfortably at the moment, but then, I'm not considering children, a mortgage, or even a new scanner until I get a regular income back. If I progress to, say, £30k in a year (could be poss with the job lined up) I'm sure I'll have to start stressing about getting on the property ladder. And even when I'm earning enough to live comfortably on - shit! What will I live on when I retire? ~ I'll Show You Tyrants * Fuselit * The Prowl Log * Woe's Woe

The choice described is often the choice to provide the best life possible for your family or not. For most people, that's not a real choice. The man who worries how he is going to feed his children obviously has bigger worries than the man who worries whether he will have to pull his children out of private school, but that doesn't mean he worries any more. We all have problems, those of us with smaller problems have a bad tendency to exagerate them or invent more.