The Seven Sins of England?

I've only seen the adverts, but I'm familiar with the format. The point is to show that, rather than England going to the dogs and having fallen from a golden age where all was civilisation, fan-fluttering and riding breeches, the good old days were also pretty shit, too. As an outsider, you probably missed that, as you acknowledge. There's been a big move toward re-demonising 'the mob' of late, and it rests upon an idea of decay and of things spinning out of control; heads shaking in disgust. The current age is seen as an historical anomaly, the likes of which this country has never seen. This is always ahistorical, and based on a poor grasp of just what life was like 'in the shite old days'. As a programme like this tries to show, things now are actually better than they were in the past, and that certain things do crop up whichever time you're looking at. Cheers, Mark

working class...hmm...I'm not sure we can classify people the same anymore. ? Dunno...but I don't get why alot of the 'louts' don't see straight through the old, "saving it all up for saturday night," jargon. Funny: we get religion forced down our throats before 'the age of accountability' and the rest are kinda left for the statesmen to feast on. Poor children. :( When the power of love overcomes the love of power, we'll find peace. - Jimi Hendrix

I think the point of the show is what Mark says. I didn't see it, though, so I don't know whether they succeeded. I'm all for discussion of class. In fact, I wish we had a lot more of it. The problem is that most current discussion of class is focused purely on cultural issues and ignores questions about imbalances of power and status. Then we get lumbered with utterly idiotic conventional wisdoms such as the idea that if someone has a degree they're automatically middle class.

i really enjoyed the seven sins of England, because it was a backlash similiar in vain to 'Shameless', which basically says stop judging us by your standards. If we want to binge drink and spend all our wages on worthless trinkets and wear mini skirts, why shouldn't we. What right does one class have to look down on and judge another? It was great to hear these moral judgements about the country going to the dogs becuase girls are drinking too much and realise the quote was from 1754. I certainly didn't think it was justifying any behaviour, but rather illustrating how the 'ruling' class have been predicting social collapse since about 1500. Juliet

For more on 'the mob' from the perspective of a heavy smoker in the 1930's: http://tinyurl.com/3xofvj You should start at about paragraph 7, beginning "Suppose it is granted that a PLONGEUR'S work is more or less useless". It's worth it. Cheers, Mark

I did watch it - and enjoyed it for what it was. I know how it came about - some fancy dan TV kid found an old quote from 'istory showing that the sins of today are similiar to the sins of yesteryear. he dug out some more, found some relatively articulate chavs in Romford to voice them and went to film them as they got pissed up, encouraging them all the while to behave worse and worse. This is 'modern, challenging TV'. It's one reason I got out of the business. However, it was quite jolly and the supposedly serious point they were trying to make was 'plus ca change'. What I liked in the prgramme was the justification for their behaviour from the chavs - that we are heroes when it comes to war as we are more brutal, more able to fight and more aggressive than anyone else - but in peacetime, you don't like us. They don't seem to have worked out that we have a nuclear bomb.

"The problem is that most current discussion of class is focused purely on cultural issues and ignores questions about imbalances of power and status." Don't they come under cultural issues? I don't see much discussion of class, really. I just see the two sides repeated. Either you go with Pulp's "and watch your life slide out of view/and then drink and dance and screw/because there's nothing else to do" - ie. the working class are a miserable, misunderstood, put-upon lot, while the middle classes are whining, over-priveleged shitheads - or else you join in the moaning - sorry, 'concern' - regarding loutish behaviour and believe the working classes are wilfully-ignorant layabouts, over-indulged by benefit culture and given far too much leighway when it comes to being anti-social. Basically, most people seem to end up being capitalist apologists or socialist apologists, and there is a general refusal to share responsibility. Either it's all their own fault or it's society's fault.

Didn't see it, but... Could its "point" just have been entertainment? :/ pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)

I actually live in Romford, which was apparently on that show; although i did not see it, it is probable that they got this town right for once. The drinking problem has gotten so bad that they have banned it alcohol in the vicinity of the station and there is even a curfew now. It is, to be polite, an utter dump. I fear for my life some days just getting the bus home because of the gangs of chavs that hang around.

Apparently, I read recently, there is no such thing as 'middle class' any more. We are all working class or aristocricy. I do not vomit in the streets though. Last week, I had a nasty bout of viral gastroenteritis. It came upon me suddenly on tuesday and I could not stop puking. But I HAD to go home, I felt so ill. The effort it took to get from Golder's Green to Camberwell without being seen spewing was incredible. But I did achieve it. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

The American equivalent of this would be a documentary on slums and youth gangs which compares today's gangsta culture with the teenager slum gangs of New York in the 19th Century (and even earlier). Central Park was once the location of a horrible (mostly Irish as I recall) slum, ruled by gangs of drunken 11-15 year olds who routinely murdered each other, robbed, etc. Central Park was built to end the problem, but it just moved. As recently as the 1970s, the Hell's Kitchen area (midtown west 40s and 50s) was not a fun spot (again, mostly Irish thugs). The black gangs were in Harlem, others wherever. I obviously did not see the show, but lager louts are hardly limited to "the working class." In my three years in the City, I saw a large number of supposedly educated and upwardly mobile types swilling beer and puking on their shoes. Their behavior sober wasn't much better. I found little substantive difference between the Wankers in the City and the football hooligan lager louts, except that the football hooligans often sported better hairdos. "You don't need the light of the Lord to read the handwriting on the wall." Copies of Warsaw Tales available through www.new-ink.org

"Better"? pe ps oid ... What is "The Art of Tea"? ... (www.pepsoid.wordpress.com)