refuge - unfinished by maisie

what a bunch of hissy twats exist on this site.poor maisie has had her poem hijacked by a bunch of inadequate twits. i only came on here for my own reason recently, some reasearch(i'm scottish but i i use an american story site).pizza, get a life and write something you jumped up little sad person(mysogyinistic to boot) and your little pretentious friends!! no wonder no-one comes on here, unless they want to get into ' the wind was luscious but bright' mode.at the end of the day no-one is buying into your sad little world, is that whats bugging you? and by the way- i have 2 cherries whether you like it or not, my dear :-)

pizza-give advice? what is the reasoning for that? he is a a venomous little guy who has no right to give advice to anyone,as i have seen he has one live poem(no cherries).enough with the sucking up, dont know what this no-hit wonder was complaining about to begin with!

and his misogynistic( have i spelt it right this time?) friends. you have no talent, obviously you have a charles manson type charisma to have such a crew of fans.its not your writing thats for sure.go and get another cause instead of hijacking sites like this!! when you have the right to critique other people (which you dont because of your venomous nature) come back and give it a go.oh, and write a decnet poem or whatever it is you do on here :-)

What difference does having cherries make to someone's ability to give constructive crit? You think all well-regarded critics are well-regarded authors? Many people who have received far more cherries than yourself would not have been able to give advice anywhere near as concise as pizzas'. One person's cherry is another's "no-hit wonder", saffyjo. "Jumped up little sad person". Ahhh...classic. I'd give that a cherry.

hey, think about it, i have never 'tried ' to give advice.dont make things any worse than they are, pizza this and pizza that.was pizza not getting the attention he deserved cos the housewives had better stories??? get a grip!! consize as pizzas??see-he's a regular little charismatic charles manson alright.people with more cherries than me arent involved in this debate.you are a teenager, dont try and suck up to your master on my behalf. he's not worthy of critisising anyone, my dear.thats the point.tell him to go and write some good stuff, if he did he wouldnt be wasting time crtisising anyone else, i assure you

sorry, you just think like a teenager, or someone below the realms of normal cognitive functioning for your age range. my mistake.

Saffyjo, you're saying they're acting like teenagers, you're one to talk. I know 13 year old Texans who act more mature then you are. Just stop insulting people. What you think just cause you have cherries makes you a better person then pizza? jeez. PS: What's wrong with teenagers anyway?

Nice to see Saffyjo reads the posts properly. Shall I make it easier for her? SAFFY JO. I am a WOMAN. You have no idea about my writing. I woulnt post my work on here for quids these days! I am also 41. I was also in an abusive relationship for years (no, calm down Maisie, I'm not doing the sympathy thing, I just wanted to tell you that you only get over it when you don't base your entire personality around it and sweep the very trophiness of it off the table to wave at every person you speak to). You really are a complete arse. As someone said to me last night - why are you bothering? There isnt a decent person amongst the twittering rabble. You know what? Its true. Fuckwits.

You need at least 100 cherries to say absolutely anything you like 50 cherries lets you call a poem rubbish 30 cherries and you can complain about new abctailers 20 cherries and you can complain about old abctailers 10 cherries and you can complain about log in problems you need 5 cherries before you can describe a poem as anything other than 'awesome' you need 2 cherries before you can use capital letters and correct punctuation in a post you have to have at least 1 cherry before you can stop posting in txtspk it's all in the terms of service somewhere

I was a bit pissed last night, and knew you were probably a woman.but I didnt amend what I'd said cos a) i couldnt be arsed and b) I thought it would make you feel good correcting me-since that's what you do best :-) what a lovely friendly little place this is.

Is Saffyjo also Rita? I've had two SoW and I'm on about a 65% cherry rate (quick calculation), and I'm taking that as a right to say Saffyjo is a complete moron. What I'm hoping is Saffyjo accused me of being a teenager, looked at my profile, assumed I was in my forties or fifties and then came back to say I just think like a teenager. See, I found this software on the net that ages pictures of you. It's really clever, it can change your ethnic group too and other things. I'll post it in gen diss. Anyway, I digress. Saffyjo: Hope your hangover's not too bad this morning, my dear.

Brilliant. Ten points to me! I knew you were (a) drunk! I swear I posted that before I saw your message, I SWEAR it.

bravo enzo!!who could have failed to notice,and where the hell did i get charles manson from.still- you're all a bunch of degenerate twats, but it's good to see how my rant has brought out some touching displays of group bonding.I'm sorry to disappoint you but I have had enough of this verbal tirade.It's been fun but I have reached my saturation point.ok, now go back to arguing amongst yourselves , or find some other sucker to pick on.p.s. I'm taking my cherries with me!over and out.

*p.s. I'm taking my cherries with me!over and out.* Good, the person that gave them to you must have been as pissed as you were last night. Take care dearie and don't trip over the other garbage on the way out. xxx

'p.s. I'm taking my cherries with me!over and out.' I'm going home and taking my ball with me. Fuck it we'll use a coke can till someone else comes along with a ball. Why does everyone make the big announcement when they leave, why not just fuck off? I mean it's hardly like where were you when you found out Kennedy had been shot is it? (not that I was alive, just seems a popular comparrison). nobody

Is that *two* people stormed off in a huff from just one thread, that's got to be some kind of record.

i so far dont seem to have gone. perhaps i wll just hang around to make fullly poisenous crits of every one elses work with full ref to anything i think that may be true about them....

Maisie, for the last time, go read the crit properly. It is not poisonous. It is not destructive. I have a seven year old with better reasoning skills than you. You need to grow up.

Typical five year old arguement: "You're stupid!" "No you are!" "No you are!" "No I'm not, you are!" "No you are!" sound familiar people? ringing any bells?

looking back over all this today, apart from havnig fun slinging the insults.. ie, im medocre, a middle aged housewife (why that is wrong i dont know) and stupid and should grow up (always essential to chuck if you are not the above) and have no reasoning power ... lol. i see that you never even looked at the rewrite, which i posted after your comments you were just so incensed at the your insistance that i had said ......i would keep it as is... rather than what i wrote which was.. "shall let it say what i want"

On UKAuthors, you specify the type of critique you want. Advanced critique means 'knives out, full honesty please.' Normal critique means 'be tender, but helpful'... or you can specify that you don't want to be critiqued at all. There is no 'just say I'm great' option. It might be helpful if people were more realistic about the sort of comments they are after. If you say, any comments welcome then you should really be ready for total honesty. I do think PIzza's comments were a bit antagonistic but ultimately, they were helpful. And she clearly took time over them. I do think there is an unusual amount of bad writing being flagged and being given praise at the moment. I think Pizza is being a bit reactionary, but I can understand why. It's frustrating to see so much shit writing getting flagged up as great. And even worse when the posts are all sycophantic. It does all feel a bit self-delusional, much more about egos than learning how to write. I don't think it's an easily solveable problem though. This is and should remain a site that is open to everyone.

Interesting points all round. Of course I like praise as much as the next egotist but we all know that crticism is what's needed to improve our writing. Rokkit makes a good point. Any criticism should, I think be made in a charitable spirit and certainly within the bounds of common courtesy. Unless you know the writer personally straying outside these bounds loses the value of the comments. Having said that, I didn't think Pizzas comments went out of these bounds they pushed them in places maybe. I would have welcomed them. (Incidently, someone recently said to me ' You really need to sort out your line breaks. Yours are not working for the poem and have no apparent strategy." They could have said "I liked blah blah blah, but I think in places maybe your line breaks etc etc" BUT I appreciated their directness). I myself knowingly post unfinished, sloppy and sub-standard work here. I view this site very much as a 'work in progress' notebook rather than a platform for finished and polished pieces only. The place for that is competitions or print magazines (for me!) Perhaps I shouldn't do this. The very 'open' nature of this website means inevitably work of varying standard will be flagged. If anyone feels that there is a clique of people who flag each other's work in a back-slappy way, you can see from the titles and authors of threads which ones these are and not to read. As BBF said, no-one forces your browser anywhere. Maddan's cherry comment made me chuckle. Saffyjo's comments almost precipitated a relapse - I con sidered drinking the windolene but hey... jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

BTW Maisie. The 'Issue' poem (cousin of the disaster poem) is very difficult to write well avoiding cliches or trivialising something important. This is a general comment - I wouldn't describe your poem like this - but it does in places succumb. You do have some good imagery here though (as has been said) and you could quarry this- some good material which you shouldn't waste. Peter Sansom in one of his books about writing poetry (published by Bloodaxe) gives a lot of helpful advice on the subject - I'd recommend this title. The only way of making a 'disaster' or 'issue' poem work well is to write from personal experience and to use an interesting peg to hang the issue on. For me personally, I only enjoy 'issue' poems that deal with the issue in a very oblique way. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

In the spirit of my usual, 'Come on everybody let's all be friends' sandal wearing persona, I have just a few things to say about this. Firstly - Maybe everyone should start putting in their little intro box to their work how much crit they would like, if any. Some people post on here not for crit, but just to have somewhere to view/show their work, and it doesn't say anywhere that people should have to take or offer criticism. (I know Masie did ask) Secondly - I don't see the problem with people flagging work by writers they like - it's not as though flagging is the same as an automatic cherry. I am really with Rokkit on this - I liked what he said, and me being a self-flagelating kind of writer, or at least one who is always in search of the perfect sentence, I know what kind of crit I can take and am happy to take it. Thirdly - Honest crit can be some of the best stuff to happen to a writer. But, for crit to really work, I feel it has to come from a built up relationship of trust. If someone just tells you, brutally, what they think, when you have never had any contact with them before it can come as a shock. I think pizza's comments on this poetry is really spot on, and maybe maisie would too, but I think the shock of reading some of them could have caused some of this conflict. Fourthly (is that a word?) - I cannot believe that 'middle aged housewife' or 'bun bakers' is being bandied about as insults. Some of my favourite writers could be dismissed as 'middle aged housewives', and the idea that that status is enough to deride is unsound. I'm sorry, but I find this offensive and misoginistic. Funny, because I happen to think pizza is intelligent, witty and brill, but I hate that kind of insult. I wanted to let it lie - but I cannot. It is just not a valid criticism. Everybody who writes is looking to find an autentic way to communicate, I think, and not everyone will end up writing like T S Eliot. Does this mean they should be banned from writing? No. Does this mean I have to enjoy their writing? No. But then, I don't like scrambled eggs. Should I keep eating scrambled eggs and then saying how much I don't like them? Probably not. Fifthly - Nobody ever said this a site for high literary writing. There is room for it, and in fact there is some very good writing on this site, and everyone knows what kind of writing they admire/like, or want to comment on, and there is probably room for all. I think you know from the first few lines if it is going to be a piece you like, so you don't have to read it. The best thing that happened to my writing has been learning whose opinion on my writing I trust. It really is only a handful of people, and that has taken over 5 years to develop. Some of those are on abc, some are not. Pizza is a talented critic, and for anyone who wants to listen, I think she could really help improve their work. I dunno. I don't like to see people fight. Any conversation about what abc is or isn't is irrelevent really, as abc is whatever it is at that time, whatever work is posted, whatever posts are posted, whoever is logged on, visiting, whatever. (I reiterate my original point - add a line saying what crit you want to your post - then everyone knows, and can act accordingly.)

p.s. for anyone who was questioning pizza's initial crit see this: 'Noble idea though. Worth continuing the experiment.Try taking the poem right back to the core images that you want. Anger strips the trees is great' Pizza was trying to help maisie make the poem better. That is a really, good, genuine piece of advice. The discussion that ensued afterwards sort of went into a vortex.

I've been away dealing with old parent and parents in law over the weekend. These are people with real problems, struggling through their remaining days with whatever dignity they can muster. They too are touch, bad tempered and difficult. They find criticism or help very difficult to accept - and criticism and help are often one and the same thing. ABC is precisely as described by fergal - whatever it is on the day with the people who choose to use it making it or breaking it. I have a very 'laissez-faire' attitude to the Discussion Forums. If people get into rows then I try and allow them to work it out, so long as the abuse doesn't get too out of hand. I can see exactly why maisie got upset by the comments. The crit itself was harsh but eminently fair. I had appreciated her poem, I felt it needed work but also that it had some very good points. It was the 'clique of middle aged women' comments that were hurtful and unnecessary. People are people are people. Here we are judged by our writing. ABCtales set out to be a totally open space for writers of all abilities to join together and help each other to improve. It is fair to say that some of the best critics are not particularly good writers and vice versa. You can't comment unless you can do it better is an utterly fallacious argument - most of the best sports coaches have been, at best, indifferent at the sport themselves. I suspect that the heat and the booze got the better of some of us and I appeal to you all to accept honest criticism as such and be thankful for it - but for critics to temper their comments at times, to be sensitive and to avoid making generalised sweeping remarks that can be hurtful.

"It is fair to say that some of the best critics are not particularly good writers and vice versa. " Good point. Regardless of my writing I know that I am not capable of giving a very academic critique. Half the time I don't even know why I like something. I've thought about some of the comments on this thread and as a result I think perhaps a simple appreciative 'I enjoyed that' might be better sent by email to the author rather than posted on this forum. I always took this forum to be a 'Discuss' not a 'Critique' forum where I can share my reaction to something. I agree that a critical/ analytical response to a poem may be more useful, but an emotive reaction is sometimes all I've got. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I don't doubt that - but in the middle of this debate there was an allusion to the view that those who are not brilliant writers cannot be critics. That's why it was there.

I thought the initial critique from Pizzas was helpful and generous. This is a poem about a sensitive issue but that doesn't make it a good poem. Beyond the slightly narky approach to the housewife community, this is actually a point I think is worth considering: "You get a perfectly harmless mundance poem from some merry housewife which is siezed upon by other merry and not so merry housewives and flagged, given poem of the week... it is an utter nonsense really... but this is the result." I think there has been a growing tendency amongst the editorial team to promote poetry with harrowing and/or gratuitously emotional content despite the fact that it's severly lacking in terms of both craft and/or original ideas. On several occasions, poems have been flagged up as poem of the week that are considerably worse - in terms of ideas and technique - than the poems on so-called 'scam' sites such as Poetry.com While there might not be an objective judgement of good and bad poetry, there are some characteristics of poetry that mean you might eventually have some chance of getting it published in a magazine or ultimately getting your own collection published. While poets aim to do different things, what both Pam Ayres and Geoffrey Hill have in common is that they're pretty good at what they're trying to do. Pretending that everything is of equal value or worse, that poetry is good because people really, really, mean it is setting people up to fail - if and when they try get poems published by anyone other than vanity presses. And I think this does go against what ABC or any other writing site should be trying to do.

Fair comment I guess. I have never claimed to be able to judge poetry. If I don't get a nomination for Poem of the Week then I pick it myself - and I like the poems we have in that set. I would defend every one. But I am open to suggestion - perhaps too open - and so far I get very few nominations. It's easy to say that the choice was bad after the occasion - now get out there and choose one for Poem of the Week!

Pretending that everything is of equal value or worse, that poetry is good because people really, really, mean it is setting people up to fail - if and when they try get poems published by anyone other than vanity presses. And I think this does go against what ABC or any other writing site should be trying to do. Brilliantly BRILLIANTLY said Bukharin/David. Thats why I said what I did. I feel I have been banging my head against a wall for a long time now, by having precisely that view. You express is more succinctly than I do, but I get angry. It's my failing. Pizza / Liana

vodka-scone anyone? jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

'I think there has been a growing tendency amongst the editorial team to promote poetry with harrowing and/or gratuitously emotional content despite the fact that it's severly lacking in terms of both craft and/or original ideas.' Erm... what? Maybe I dozed off somewhere down the line but I spend far longer on 'tales than is strictly healthy and I haven't noticed this tendency at all. To address the PotW and SotW issue, for me, the Poem/Story Of The Week is not supposed to be the 'best' to have appeared in the last seven days, merely one that is worth drawing attention to or using as a point of debate. If you don't like an individual choice much and want to make your voice heard, then contribute to the specific thread and explain why! 'Pretending that everything is of equal value or worse, that poetry is good because people really, really, mean it is setting people up to fail - if and when they try get poems published by anyone other than vanity presses. And I think this does go against what ABC or any other writing site should be trying to do.' I would hope that I've been enough of an opinionated, irrascible gobshite over the years to demonstrate that I totally agree with this position. When it comes to writing I'm an old-fashioned elitist at heart, and I have no desire to see the Discuss Writing Forum descend into a glorified Caucus Race where everyone has won and all shall have prizes. But isn't possible that there are different modes of criticism one can adopt? And that some are more appropriate than others? If your five-year-old kid enjoys plinking about on the piano, you recognise their will to create and participate and encourage it, perhaps gently introduce them to scales. You don't slap them for having bolloxed up Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# Minor but neither do you, glowing with parental pride, stick them in front of a packed auditorium and goad them into smashing out their tuneless crap in front of a paying audience. Some people are at the early participation stage of writing, or just coming back to it, and it behoves us as a community to exercise a modicum of caution when critiquing a new member. I don't offer as much in-depth criticism as perhaps I should (mainly because my main source of income is writing MS critiques and so I'm a little edited-out) but I don't see the problem with tough critique threads and backslappy love-ins rubbing shoulders on the forums. And Juliet, I'm not so much a merry housewife as a bored housewife. I greeted the electricity meter man in my underwear yesterday (actually true) and he didn't so much as blink. Somebody take me away from this domestic purgatory!

I was probably the only person here not to realise p.r was the pesky one. Nice to see you. Juliet: Great point. Well worth posting twice, definately. David: The most sensible thing said on this thread in a long while. Also fair play to Tony. He's been saying for ages to nominate PoWs etc, so if people don't bother, you can't argue with the upshot. I always pay more attention to the stories anyway, cos that's my thing. Ben

I didn't guess Pizzas identity either, the anchovy disguise was most cunning. Rokkit, I love the word 'behove(s)' and it should be used far more often! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Oh come on... the worst kept not-even-a-secret ever? I would suggest Tony, that when you appoint eds, instead of being hell bent on this inclusion thing (which, as I have always said, is admirable in it's intent but wholly destructive once it extends to exclude everyone else) you select editors that a) have more than one hour per month to devote to the site, b) dont flag willy nilly in an attempt to ingratiate all and sundry, and c) know just the tiniest amount of what they are actually talking about, lit wise. Ferg and Tim, were fucking brilliant, in all of that. Well done, on Ferg and Tim. Merry housewife isn't an insult. Pinny flapping housewives is, but I love it, and will continue to bandy it about at every opportunity. I am a merry housewife, sans pinny however. Tony - you never claimed to be able to judge poetry? You big old fibber you. You have staunchly defended the most execrable things in the past. Poetry is subjective of course it is, but as David said, Pam Ayres and Geoffrey Hill write very differently, but equally well. Some of the pieces you have commended up to the site have been rib crackingly dire. When called upon to discuss 17thC literature I keep my mouth shut as I know zilch. That's how you do it.

Who are the current eds by the way?

Now that is very true. A cherry from Ferg is worth an awful lot more to me because I know she knows what she's on about. If she says something is good, I know it is. I've had cherries before for pieces that I KNOW are sloppy/ poor whatever... and that means that flagging is not a useful marker for me ... Tim as in Tim Smilie? jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

* shamefacedly stuffs pinny under cushion *

I have no pocket for my duster now.

Tell you what, it gladdens my heart to see poetry being discussed though., Whether it descends into argument or not, at least its being discussed... these forums have been without passion for far far too long.... look at all this movement again. Hurrah!

Well I started to. Come on.

My comments in brackets: Tell you what, (good opening) it gladdens my heart to see (gladdens my hears is clunky) poetry being discussed though., Whether it descends into argument or not, at least its being discussed (great natural rhythm to this, but discussed twice in two lines? Sloppy.) these forums have been without passion for far far too long (really atmospheric) look at all this movement again. (good ending, ties the piece up well) Hurrah! (is this really necessary?) Yes, a cherry for this piece. It's tight and concise, and has a elegance. I'd get rid of the gladdens my heart bit, but that's a personal opinion. Ben

hrmmm... what do you think if I italicize the 'is' before the second discussed? Maybe it works better spoken. I agree that gladdens my hears is clunky, but I said 'gladdens my heart'. Taking a second look though, it is a little cliched if not clunky, so I'll rethink that. Thank you for taking the time to comment. I really appreciate it... how can one grow otherwise? Cheers Ben!

I think all the editors (bar one) have been extremely generous with their TIME. Some are better critics than others. I think Tony might be hard pressed to find somebody willing to be ed with more than one hour per month to devote to the site and who knows what they're on about lit wise (from this discussion I think we conclude that more than a tiny bit of knowledge is desireable) I guess he could select 10 people who have made useful, insightful and intelligent criticism on this forum and invite them to a six month post but we all have families, jobs, and other things. Perhaps throwing in a small fee may help but I digress too far ... Perhaps we should have a 'Site Conscience' - a discussion at the end of June when the current editors' stints expire, on how we would like editorial to work, how editors are selected, elected and any other aspects of the role... jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I meant invite 10 in the hope half would agree not all at once... 5 at a time I think....that's 10 a year