refuge - unfinished by maisie

Ha! Gladdens my hears, indeed! Thanks for taking the crit as intended. I read a poem on here once called 'Good Girl', I suggest you look it up. It may inspire you; in time you may be able to write something of that quality... Editor must be hard job, I imagine there's a lot of crap to wade through. I always said I'd do it, but I don't know if I'd be any good. I like it when they email, the eds. Ferg always emailed.

One thing I've noticed is that most of the people in this thread calling for a more mature attitude to critiques (Ben, David, Liana, etc) are great writers who, creatively, we haven't heard enough from recently. Post some work, kids! Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, eh?

Thanks for the compliment Rokkit, but I have been working on one thing and one thing only recently, and it's too long to post. But point taken about the candles and darkness and what-have-you.

Well, you know - nature abhors a vacuum and all that. If we cram the forum with superb work then job's a good 'un, eh what?

'I imagine there's a lot of crap to wade through.' This may be the big off-putting factor. For my part I may consider not posting every random thought I have and only submitting finished drafts.( I repeat myself) I was reading recently that one of the worst things about submitting poetry to (print) magazines before it is ready is that you don't actually want to see your work published and be dissatisfied with it. I'm very grateful for my SotW a couple of months ago but it was just a first draft. It had some fundemental grammatical errors in it. My concern is that somebody visiting the site might read this and think that this is the best we can come up with - something that contains some very basic mistakes and judge the whole site on this. I chose my own piece as an example so as not to offend but I'm not alone. Could we devise a system of making the crap-wading process easier? Perhaps there could be a 'Submit for editorial review' option when posting? I know I would only put forward about a tenth of my stuff if there was. "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

"Perhaps there could be a 'Submit for editorial review' option when posting?" Problem solved, right there. That solves the harsh cirt / soft crit debate and makes the eds job easier, no?

It does sound like a good idea. Except that people's egos differ so massively. Writers like BBF and you, Ben, are always being self-effacing but - even when you have said that you are not happy with a piece - I have often really enjoyed it. I love ABCtales for the way you get to read early drafts and failed experiments by talented writers. And then there's the shit-awful poets with a nauseating amount of self-belief who post twenty poems in an hour. They think everything they write is great because... oh God... because... IT'S TRUE or it comes from REAL EMOTIONS. Argh. They will be the people who put their work forward for the eds. Joe

I think there is a 'creative tension' between those professional, polished and academic writers who strive for excellence and originality ... and those for whom their poetry is for personal fulfilment and self expression which we all know is legitimate and welcome on this site. Many more people, like myself sit somewhere between these two groups. Both camps have valid points and the finger pointing can go on ad infinitum I'm trying to come up with some practical suggestions on how these two groups of users can peacefully co-exist. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

It's funny Juliet, but I could level exactly the same thing at the group i suspect you are needlessly defending here. Egos and elitism? Place it there. This whole row started because one person couldnt BEAR to think that the writing she submitted and asked for comments on, was less than fantastic. If thats not an ego problem, then fucked if i know what is. There 'used to be' MASSES of work flagged here. Loads. Now, loads of pieces are flagged, and have one answer, usually a gushing oscar type acceptance of brilliance by the writer of said thing. If you think that is discussing writing, then I despair for your students. Dont you encourage lively debate? Dont you think that by delving, reading, talking, writing, disagreeing, agreeing, we learn? I'd absolutely HATE to learn from silence and meaningless 'well done, ty for the read'.... (incidentally, I know this sounds terrible and probably is completely just my point of view, but everytime i see you say "ty for the read" it makes me want to scream. Dont say ty, SAY something - why did it move you? What did you like? or, say something different, sometimes! Ok, Im apologising for that already) There is room for all kinds of writing, I have honestly written badly for years and only improved to the semi literate standard i have now, by listening to other people - not people who necessarily were more learned, or published, but just listening and offering a slant on things. There are people who want to write ab ab ab rhyme, great - that's fine. What I cant abide are the oodles of three post threads "oh this moved me" "oh, thank you glad you liked it" "oh, thats ok i always like your work". That's a nonsense... its dull, its passionless, its POINTLESS. If I come across as arrogant, well fine, I can bear that. I'd rather be arrogant than blind, not to mention bland. Oh and witches, was your comment I believe. I said nothing of the sort. You are doing a fantastic job of denigrating your own sex Juliet... And a final point - you say "the idea as I see it is to provide that writer with some pointers to improve" So excuse me, but EH??? Why the hell are you disagreeing then?

An option for a certain level of crit sounds useful, but then again - there'd probably be no ends of arguments along the lines of, 'that was too harsh for a soft crit/no it wasn't' variety. The option to specify 'no crit' might help, but then it wouldn't help with those who are more sensitive than they realise, or as Spack points out, maybe a little overprotective as to their perceived abilities. Oh, I don't know. If I had to offer some critical appraisal on every piece I flagged, I'd flag even less than I do now. I don't have a problem with pieces being flagged solely because it has appealed to someone and they want to point it out. But then I don't have a problem with taking criticism either, if I were better at giving it, I'd do it more often. It would be helpful to know which writers were truly receptive to criticism and which weren't, but I don't know how you'd find that out in advance. As far as the 'back slapping' thing goes - trying to be pragmatic - people write the sort of stuff that appeals them and enjoy reading the same sort of stuff. So you're bound to get small groups of people who specifically enjoy each others work. Can't think of anything else to say on the subject. All of the above has probably been said already anyway.

Jude, I thought you already were the appointed site conscious! Juliet, the problem is nothing to do with differing groups or older members not liking change, the problem is, as I stated before, that a certain section of the site members continually flag/comment mainly ONLY on each others work, and whilst this in theory is ok it means the the majority of the rest of the users then refrain from commenting on discuss writing forum because, well to be quite frank because they think it's shit and would rather keep quiet than offer critiscism that can be misconstrued as negative (look what happened when Liana did just that). Over the past months there has been some truly great pieces flagged that have then passed by with only one or two comments, whilst other pieces submitted by the tit for tatters have oodles of 'ohhh I love this', 'ohhh well done' 'congrats on the cherry' 'can't wait for the next one'. Now like you, I don't consider myself a 'long term member' , I'm not taking any side, but I can see what the problem is with what is happening, as I said on the other thread...YOU DO NOT NEED TO FLAG/COMMENT ON EVERY PIECE THAT SOMEONE SUBMITS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE DONE THE SAME FOR YOU!! I agree with BBF etc, time for change, editors that cherry on merit, for damn good writing rather than to appear nice and generous.

Juliet, if a thread gave writers 'points to improve' it wouldn't *be* backslapping would it. How many recent threads contain any criticism whatsoever? I had a much longer rant, but pizza and camus beat me to it.

*breathes deeply* I must stop ranting actually, am worried that I am going to get one of those veiny things in my forehead that throbs when I'm angry like my Dad.

I think things have been said here that needed to be said. But because they arose from one particular writer's piece and comments thereafter, people have gone on the defensive. I stole the concept of 'Site Conscience' from 'Group Conscience' of another group I belong to but it works! All I'm saying is when the time comes for a new editorial board, people can say what they want the site to be, the forums to be , the editors to be and decisions are made. Not everyone will be happy but we can say it has been discussed, everyone has had the opportunity to say what they feel and a decision was reached by management based on those views ... or something

hahaha...I could almost hear you voice in my head as I read that spartarcad!

I'd rather see rants than dozy nothings. How crits have I given? You have no idea Juliet, masses and masses and masses. I only stopped because a) I needed to finish my final year at uni, and b) there became less and less urge to crit as everything posted on the site started to look the same. Next question?

"any new members must wonder what the hell this site is for" I think Juliet makes a reasonable point here but I think a lot of problems come from the fact that older members are now in that position, too. My key problem with Tony's current approach isn't his dubious taste in poetry but his failure to hold any coherent position on this question. Most of my professional career has been spent developing ways into writing for young people and people from excluded groups, amongst others. The sort of criticism I offer is dependent on what sort of project we're working on, what we're trying to achieve and the basis on which the participants have been asked to get involved. The problem is that I get the sense that ABC doesn't currently know what it's trying to do and why. Does it want to help people become better writers? Does it want to offer amateur group therapy? Does it want to provide a piece of technology and let things unfold more or less at random? This seems to be the current position. The ABCtales strapline 'everyone has a story to tell' is great but inevitable the next question is 'So what?' Do we want to read the story and tell them it's great? Do we want to read it and give suggestions on how to tell it better? Even with Talecatching - the social inclusion element of ABCtales - I've always thought point the second option was vitally important. ABCtales has a good record for helping people - myself included - to progress from where we were to somewhere a bit better. I'm not clear whether it still wants to do this or not? And if it does still aim to do this, I'm certainly not clear how it's going to going about it in the near future?

perhaps rather than having the quick reads thread, which never seemed to be used, we could have a thread where people could simply say I like this without having to give any reasons or crit of any kind, sort of a back-slapping thread. Discuss writing could then be put back to its proper use, TO DISCUSS WRITING, this way those who didn't want to see an entire forum of 'ohhh, brilliants' wouldn't have to because they could simply avoid said tit for tat forum.

*toddles off to pay chinese man down the street to cook her dinner.*

Camus, I was going to make a similar suggestion... that we have a 'critique' or 'editorial comment' forum leaving this one for uncritical flagging. I'd probably use both... However someone's going to moan that users of the critique thread see themselves as some kind of elite... even though it will put some people out, I think it would be a good approach.

Camus, that's the most constructive thing I've heard. Good idea. It could be the Quick Flag forum or something. Surely we could lose a couple of the other forums to make room - god know's they're rarely used. Apart from that, I think Bukharin has got to the point at the heart of all this. The site obviously isn't what *all* people want it to be, but because there is no official 'should' about it, this argument just becomes endless. Maybe Tony should say if it has a 'specific' aim or if it hasn't, implement some practical measures (such as Camus') to allow the various groups to stop bugging the hell out of each other. Otherwise this debate is going to keep coming up as it has done before, and quite frankly, I can't be bothered to *rant* about any of it. It'll be on another thread in three months.

oh right, I've given exactly two critiques, one was 'this has too many adjectives in it' and the other was 'loved the last two lines', I was also particuarly scathing about my flatmate's attempt to park the car last night. Why?

why in god's green earth is this debate still going? I mean this has got to be the longest i've ever seen in the past 21 weeks. and it's about a comment on a poem! not about abortion, or the goverment, or writers, but a freakin comment! i'm sorry but does anyone else find that extreamly odd?

Not really, Mike. It's about writing, after all, and this is the discuss writing forum. I'd be far more surprised to see a ding-dong over Roe vs Wade... you baby-murdering swine.

Mike, it is a debate about writing and writing feedback, if you don't want to see that the debate is still going on then don't click on the header, just bypass it and look at some other threads. Juliet, believe it or not my tit for tat comment was not directed at yourself, in fact not one of my comments has been as I am quite aware that although you do sometimes flag/comment on several of the writers who seem to do this, you also comment and flag on many, many others. My comment was directed solely at the group that only seem to pat each other on the back (it seems that everyone knows who they are except themselves!)

That's a little harsh.

I think ABC achieves a lot more than can reasonably be expected for a free site... though it may well be it could achieve even more if it scrapped the forums. So far as I can see most of the arguements on this thread are based on the assumption that ABC IS the forums. Still such arrogance and the resulting power struggles probably explains why it makes compulsive reading for the BB mentality and maybe does add an extra hit or two to the site in the short term :O)

we're not even discussing the story itself though. if u want a debate on what ABCtales has acheived or about writing poetry then start a thread on that, don't add 148 comments to a thread discussion that was ended long ago, yet seems to keep going. And i would go discuss on other threads if they actually existed, everyone has ganged up on thread and now no other stories are being reviewed. there hasn't been a single cherry award since this thread began and maybe...what, 4 flags in 3 days?

Mike, if you have something constructive to say about a piece then flag it yourself, have a read through recently added and try to realistically ascertain how many pieces you REALLY think are worth a flag, then go through again and ask how many do you think are outstanding enough to be given a cherry? Post your answers on another thread if you like and you never know someone may answer you, and if you are lucky you may be able to have a little debate of your own about the piece/s you chose. Just don't go choosing a piece simply because you like the author or they have flagged/commented on something of yours in the past! (oh and don't chose your own piece either.)

ur making it sound like all i do is flag the work of those who have commented me, sounds a little hostile doesn't it camus? i'm just saying what i think.

Camus isn't being hostile, Mike. She is merely stating the rules for the 'Discuss ABC Forum'... at least those that her particular little clique wish to see adopted. You should also try to make sure the author is English, went to the right university and has had an occassional rant on the threads. Bear in mind that it's OK to be smug, arrogant or pretentious once you have been here a while and have the right friends. Oh, and you should have, or be getting, a degree in Creative Nom-de-plumes so you have several different personnas so you can back yourself up :O) After your 3 year apprenticeship you may even be allowed to flag pieces from people that you like... so long as you both went to the same Uni :O)

*whoosh* that's the sound of 50% of what u just said going over my head, sorry but i really didn't understand u mykle. I have several different personnas? is that an insult or a comment. i really can't tell, it's like we're speaking in another language here. (no insult intended)

Mike, I was simply saying that if you wanted to create discussions on other pieces then make sure you actually thought that they were good, you think I'm being hostile to you, fine, I can assure you I'm not. However, next time you come on here bleating to change the subject, and then doing nothing about it I just may be! Mykle, you really are the most insidious twat, only showing your face again when you think you may be able to use that giant spoon of yours. You are assuming (yet again) that I, and everyone else is English simply because they are listed as living in the U.K, ok, we can already see inside Mykle's tiny little world from that point of view. You assume that I went to the 'right' university, which one would that be then as I live in bloody Lincolnshire! Erm, it's ok to be smug, arrogant and pretentious when you have been here a while...well, you have been here a lot longer than me and seem to have cracked that one well. I don't need a creative non-de-plume to back myself up, as you can see I am quite happy being Camus (the same Camus that you seem to think is someone else, even though you have mailed me before saying how much you like my writing, soon changed your mind when you realised I wasn't actually an innocent newcomer that you could try to influence but a friend of Liana's didn't you!) Finally, check how long people actually have been here, nowhere near 3 years as you can see, and as I only went to uni (is this a jealousy thing you have going on here, you seem to be obsessed by uni's) with Liana (btw, that is the same Liana that has already told everyone that she is pizzas.ready,) I would be a little restricted in what I could actually flag now wouldn't I? Now I am sure that you are bent over your pc, hobbit-like waiting to get that spoon of yours out again so i will finish there and go get ready to spend the day with 30 seven-eight year olds looking at Roman Lincoln and leave you to dream up some more crap.

shurely the uni comment wasn't aimed at Camus ? In the 7 months since I started posting a fair bit of work here, I've had flags but the only 2 people who've given me useful crit are Neil and Camus. Last poem she flagged, the flag said what she liked about it, what didn't work AND (and this is the really important bit) suggested an alternative to the line that didn't work. I nearly sang the f*****g Te Deum... more of the same please! And we didn't go to uni together.I graduated from King's with a science degree. In fact we've never met. Regarding uni cliques it was all thrashed out on the "Andre Cowan..." gen diss thread some months ago so I won't dredge it all up. Sorry M, I know where you're coming from, and there maybe are inner circles here but Liana and Camus are not like this... jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

"but i think Buk raises some interesting points - can the site not be all these things?" Yes, the site can try to be all these things but the results are as BBF suggests - largely because the actions that would be taken to achieve these things are quite different. Back in the old days, the idea of ABCtales was that it would be a business. It isn't a business because it doesn't sell goods or a paid-for service. The choices left are that it could be a funded project - with some aims and objectives that it takes logical step towards acheiving - or that it can be an amateur, run it from your bedroom operation. I don't have a moral objection to amateur, run it from your bedroom operations, I've very much enjoyed being involved with several but, from discussions with Tony, I've deduced that this isn't what he wants ABCtales to be. Ironically, when ABCtales was a failing business, it was quite a good voluntary sector project - which undertook a number of clear functions to help writers improve their writing, access opportunities and gain greater exposure for their work. It did this in a refreshingly non-elitist manner which set it apart from many other writing organisations. I think there is money out there to fund this kind of work in the future - so that Tony doesn't have to continue to fund the site out of his own pocket - but, before that could be accessed, there would need to aims, objectives and a clear sense of direction.

Jude, thankyou...I have had a hectic day, my feet hurt, my nose is burnt (not surprising considering its size) and I now have to rush around packing for my trip to Silverstone tomorrow, but reading your thread made me smile.

Um, as for time, I really do do as much as I can - I try for at least an hour and a half a day, more on others. So many pieces are in the unread pile and long ones take a while to read. Some days I come on, read, say 20 pieces, none of which I feel the need to flag, and then log off. It may seem invisible to other users, but this is how I spend my time on here. It would help a lot if there was a restriction to, say, 3 pieces a day. Sometimes people come on here and post 20 pieces and my time will be taken up with that. I used to use the forums more, but I don't have the time as much. I liked all the gen dis stuff - that used to get me excited... but we need members to post interest posts on there, the sort that gets everyone adding to it. I don't know how many cherries I've given since being an editor. No more than 25 I'd say. Something has to really grab me to give a cherry, feel a bit special. I flag something when I feel there is something to talk about... some things are perfect as they are, or the opposite. But I do like to contact people about their writing separately, whether I've cherried them or not. Sometimes I've asked if they want their work discussed on a forum, and more than a few people I asked said, 'No thank you, I don't feel up to it. That's not why I'm on here'. I actually think the self-flagging can work, even though it's looked down on. At least then we know if someone wants in depth comments or not. (If someone asks to have their work commented on, they cannot expect a pure, 'Wow. This is the best thing since Fitzgerald! You're great!') I really love abctales. It has had high times, low times and all in between. At some points since being a member - 2 years - it has been a bit of life saver. I think it is going through a transition at the moment, and we can keep it going by using the forums as much as we can. The forums were what drew me in the most when I first joined, esp gen diss, and when I worked in an office, I always had abc open so I could keep up with the forums and add my ten pence, getting mini crushes on other members because they were so funny or smart.

I agree. Although it has been said before ABC tales is a wonderful resource. One which I am sure we are all immensely grateful or surely we would not spend so much damn time on here. I dont often comment on many of the threads as they make me feel like I am in a perpetual break up. I might get shouted down for this, someone has already pointed out that this is not the thread for saying how great abc tales is however, I have found it to be invaluable, inspiring and yes a bit of a life saver. It is interesting to hear that abctales is going through a bit of a direction change, I had wondered what was going on. There are cliches and there are idiots and there are people who just love the sound of their own voice. I dont reckon much of this will change, but I do reckon everyone should just get the hell on with it. Is the sun not shining where you folk are today? Its lush here. I wish I was an apron wearer. I am out of work, just need to go find myself some idiots to take care of... Span

i want to apologise for my comments last week.I was not on the windolene but I had no right to insult people.I thought someone gave a harsh review(the review itself I can't comment on, and the person who wrote it) I just thought it was a bit harsh(apart from the constructive critisism).Pizza , I'm truly sorry. I just want you to know I got a bit incensed about things that I couldn't even possibly comment on, and had no right to even give an opinion as i am not a member of this site(nor do i know anything about poetry).like i said, i just wanted to say sorry to anyone i offended.I think you worked it out for yourselves.i didnt go off in a huff, i wasnt a member of this site to begin with really. all the best to everyone.

You were a member of this site. You posted some writing, you got involved in an arguement, I reckon that makes for full membership! If you were to stick around and get to know it better, I think you'd see that most people here are pretty decent - maybe you'd like it... Either way, all the best.

curious connie. How dare you say the people who gave me cherries were pissed.You know that's not true you little suckup artist. Garbage? let me be the judge of that.show me your cherries you little skank! think you will get laid on here do you? show me the prose!When you have cherries, come back at me!over and out!again.

I am listening. I think I'd better make some kind of statement, after thinking carefully about it, in the not too distant future. I believe that I have a clear and well worked out strategy for ABC - and, interestingly, the consultant from the Cass Business School, who is working with me at the moment to develop that future strategy, seems to think it is well worked out too. But there are clearly ideas in here that need to be considered and I thank you all for taking the time to comment in such detail.

"If you were to stick around and get to know it better..." Hmm. Or not.