refuge - unfinished by maisie

if you have the time n inclination now please try it again :)

Ok, comments in paranthes are mine. Wretched, wretched man he took away my reason, took away my heart. Left me broke and beaten, at the front door of a refuge with a social worker, counting the seconds till the doors opened. . Later inside the staff(fordshire) bull terriers tore: (Don't treat the reader as an idiot. Staff(fordshire)? this doesnt work in any way shape or form) Devoured my story with relish, peppered the memory Till I cried, small, and not now fragrant with the song (not now fragrant?) Clunky.) the baby sang inside, not yet born wishes. (not yet born wishes? wouldn't wishes of the unborn work better?) . And here's a thing, the other women once discovered, (I can't make sense of this line at all) wore no marks, had no sorry tale to tell, seemed without pity as they relaxed, a harem, in this nunnery. They plotted: the downfall of man. Enticed with talk of money . and tales of how a woman could get even. How I should take aim, and become a massager at the local sex club, take money for what once would have been given freely as love. Hope rode: a knight on the horizon. (still want a man to rescue you then? I would assume that women in refuges are unlikely to be dreaming of fairy tale romance) . Inevitably I became alone, a solitary member Of a reclusive order, the children made use of the nursery While I saw the flowers blossom on the trees outside And behind my eyes; anger stripped the trees. (good image, only let down by the cliched bloosom part) . Then one other woman bruised, came and went (other woman bruised?) in a week, unable to take the formal chaos that collapsed her life's meaning. Like me she had no need For revenge, all she wanted was peace and someone . to love. (and again) But the anger still remained. I knew that. But I had nothing. But I was her and not her. (Two buts - lazy. I would remove the second, it's not needed. I was her and/yet I was not her, has more impact perhaps.) I had ingested new ethics and a desire for stabilty Finally; ingested is not the most poetic of terms, and as Juliet says, neither is etrhics. You either want floaty poetry, angry poetry, experimental poetry or cliched poetry or a sharp prose piece. Bundling them all together in a poem just creates a bit of a clumsy mess. You have some good images as Juliet says, but a lot of this really is no good at all. If you are going to disrupt how people read words, not now fragrant, for example, it needs to be either clever and original, or smoothly and insidiously done, so the reader doesnt even feel it to be foreign on the tongue. Some of these - not yet born wishes, other woman bruised, simply don't work. Noble idea though. Worth continuing the experiment.Try taking the poem right back to the core images that you want. Anger strips the trees is great. Counting the seconds till the door opens, the huddle of women plotting, the way they season and consume her story; all of these present strong imagery, which is only let down by poor execution at times.

thanks juliet, i expect the fault in how i put things is mine i often am multitasking .. and just write the basics... which says a lot about how i am with others.. eek!! sorry. and pizza thanks for your indepth destruction of my poem. which i really quite enjoyed, but, although i shall take on some of your remarks, no doubt, the poem remains mine, is not for publication... and i shall let it say what i want :) of course.

More power to you Maisie! Aren't we women ALWAYS multitasking! Particularly identified with the lines, 'All she wanted was peace and someone to love.... but the anger still remained...I was her and not her.' I guess that just about sums it up. Ty Maisie. SSS

oh um, i have just reposted a major review of this ... thing. its kinda bigger now than i am. and no includes those lines thanks .. sss :) hehehe http://www.abctales.com/node/553270

Of course... silly me. I should've realised that when you actually asked for thoughts, what you really meant was "tell me how great this is!" Sad thing is, it isnt great. You may keep it as it is, of course, it is yours. It isnt however, a poem. One of the problems with abc these days, is the promotion of haf witted material as poetry and prose. People should write if they want to, this can only be a good thing... what should not happen is what is happening now. Social inclusion is all well and good, but when half arsed semi literates are lauded with praise from above, it is patronising at best, cruel at worst. In schools for the disabled (or whatever the PC term is now) they still have sports days, which are fantastic. What they dont do, is compare the runners in the relay to Roger Bannister. This happens on abc. You get a perfectly harmless mundance poem from some merry housewife which is siezed upon by other merry and not so merry housewives and flagged, given poem of the week... it is an utter nonsense really... but this is the result. Way to go Tony. Cue seven other merry housewives, pinnies flapping in outrage....

Pizzas ready has hit the nail right on the head, this is one of the main reasons why I have not bothered with abc much of late, way too much mediocre writing is being flagged to the heavens whilst other really rather good stuff goes by with just a few comments. There seems to be a small group of writers who continually flag every bloody piece of each others writing...really ladies it IS NOT necessary to flag someones piece simply because they commented on yours, that is NOT the way to improve your writing. Oh and Maisie...if you can't take constructive criticism then DON'T post your work on a writing site, if you simply want people to say that they liked it write it in a notebook and only show it to family and friends!

you are proving the point exactly. only praise is a nonsense. Inviting comments and then saying thanks but I'll keep it as it is, is exactly what abc is not all about. I dont care if you think I'm sexist. The reason I say what I do, is because this happens all the time with a certain group of women here. Why would any experienced poet crit and offer opinions when the perpetrator of Vile Verse ignores it anyway in their quest for adulation and glory? Why waste the time?

ABC is fun?

"way too much mediocre writing is being flagged to the heavens whilst other really rather good stuff goes by with just a few comments" well i can't compain, i'm getting more flags then ever.....wait.... :(

why does my computer post the same thing twice? every freakin' time!

Hoary old sexist that pizza is, I agree. Last week I was trying to persuade a friend to join abctales and was worried that if she saw the amount of uncritical praise for writing of dubious quality (including my own) she would assume it was just a micky mouse backslapping club - which I still don't believe it is. Inbetween singing the site's praises, this is what I wrote: "...recently it seems to have been taken over by a coven of gushing middleage women who preen and coo over the most abominable writing" Praise is a good thing, and I certainly enjoy it when it comes my way, but I wish some people here would engage their critical faculties a bit more.

pizza, i am new to this site and from what i saw, miasie wasn't unable to take critisism but you could have been a bit more tactful in your critique.There were elements of venom in your post, still is actually.Using social inclusion to make your point is so far off the mark when this is a site for people who enjoy writing and want to get better at it.Do you really want to make it elitist, is that it?I'm sorry but you can't censor what people write or the writers that praise stories for whatever reason.By the way, Maisie, I enjoyed your poem, (being a housewife) :-) I found it very moving .I never read the original and I dont know much about poetry but I think you handled the subject wonderfully.

right um thanks for all the comments n reading this has generated, i never once stated my sex or whether i was a middle aged housewife at all, but.... i guess its honest enough to say my writing is mediocre at best. so without any more ado, since this site has stopped being fun for me. good bye :) i hope the standard here now goes up :)

How predictable Maisie. I have lost count of the number of members that once given a hint they might not be the next Dickens/Bronte/Shakespeare/Patten, have taken their writing off. Yet AGAIN it proves my point which was this... When people ask for an opinion, what they should add, is this... unless you tell me that my writing is completely wonderful and stunning and marvellous, I will have a blue fit. Nothing that offers criticism will be tolerated unless it is couched in hesitant tones that suggest the person offering an opinion deems that they are not worthy to do so. If anyone aims to progress as a writer, they must learn to take criticism. I predict however, that certain peoplewill never appeal to anyone outside of their own fan clubs, because their writing is unstructured, unoriginal and flaps about wildly. Like a pinny. Notice how my prediction came true by the way?

Couldn't agree more with pizzas.ready, Camus and Dan above. pizzas.ready has invested time into providing a real crit of this piece, for which the writer should be grateful. It is not everyone else that has formed this 'middle-aged housewife' group, rather they themselves that have formed a clique in which all they do is gush meaningless praise over the mostly mediocre peices the others post. That they all appeared to be of a similar demographic only inspired the label, it didn't create the group. The reason I so seldom post here anymore is because I find it embarrssing when praise is heaped on mediocre writing (especially my own), and no intelligent crit is given - even (in the extreme) something like, "This piece just doesn't work for me because of this, this and this...off you go back to the drawing board," is needed from time to time. God forbid some of the egos here should hear that! Yes, like Dan says, praise is good, of course, but crit is essential too. We all write crap sometimes - I know I do - so suck it up and move on. Now to the writer of this piece: pick your toys up, get back in the pram, thank p.r. for being straight with you and keep trying to improve like the rest of us.

Thank YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!! x

Interesting the only point you pull out of my post is the part I put in brackets - "(especially my own)" - and ignore the rest. Of course it annoys me particularly when it is my own writing, but that was an aside, which is why it is in brackets.

Oh, the melodrama. How stupid this is. My initial post (which Maisie chose - yes, chose) to call a 'destruction' of her poem, was perfectly fair. I had, as Enzo said, invested time in it. There were lots of positives. Because I didnt say it was fabulous, Maisie took umbrage with me. That quite clearly is pathetic. If I dont agreee with the maise/silver spun crowd, I am a bully. In a clique. There is only one clique I see here, and it's a bun baking one that only serves to falsely inflate the ego of the other members. And no, it is no fun. There isnt an ounce of wit left in this place, and only slightly more talent.

Cripes. Here I find myself parachuting into enemy territory. How queer. 'Inviting comments and then saying thanks but I'll keep it as it is, is exactly what abc is not all about.' 'Abctales is x / abctales is not y' arguments always sound a little prescriptivist to me. Okay, so I'll side with someone who asserts 'abctales is not a fishmongers' but when it comes to what members use the site for, I think people ought to be afforded some latitude. Not everyone takes a teleological approach to writing, powering endlessly towards some Omega Point of absolute excellence. I ought to declare an interest here - I am one of those writers who considers writing a craft, a vocation, and one I've devoted the best part of my life to getting better at. I need robust critiques and competition and constant challenges. But I don't think that it follows that everyone ought to take the same approach. There's no reason why abctales can't accomodate those who want a hothouse atmosphere of thorough workshopping as well as those who simply want to share. Whilst I understand pizza's frustration, I do think - with respect - his posts on this thread come across, whether intentionally or otherwise, as needlessly vociferous, and perhaps a little rude. In my humble opinion, his feedback on Maisie's work was tactless and unnecessarily hectoring - whatever valid points he may have made get lost beneath the tone of condescension. Look - I too have no time for prissy preening egotists who love luxuriating in twatty, nepotistic praise for their parchment-thin excuses for poetry, and then flounce off in an exaggerated huff the instant someone punctures the bubble of yes-men and women to point out gently that their work might not be perfect. I can think of specific instances where said offenders confirmed to me that they were not just mediocre writers, but muppets to boot. However, I do not think Maisie is one of these people. My take - for what it's worth - is that she offered up her poem in the spirit of sharing, and was receptive to tactful, constructive criticism, and for whatever reason, the piece pushed about fifty squillion of pizza's buttons and he launched into a broadside on abctales' perceived backslapping culture, a debate which would be far more appropriate on the main forums. So... I hope Maisie didn't take it too personally, and I am glad that abctales provides a supportive atmosphere for people who are exploring writing as a means of self-expression, rather than honing it as a skill. I, on the other hand, will continue to lash myself like a recalcitrant pack-mule in my deluded quest to become the uberscribe. Vive le difference. [sic]

If you go back and read, I only lost my temper because of the usual 'I'm having a tantrum because you didnt say it was brilliant'. My first post said nothing of the sort. If i spend half an hour trying to raise some points and get called destructive and ignored, then I am likely to feel aggrieved. The poem ISN'T brilliant. Sorry, but it isn't. It's sloppy. It has some good images (why am I repeating myself I wonder, it is like slamming my head on a brick wall) but it is generally poorly executed. And while people take offence and refuse to even consider points that someone - anyone, might make, they will remain static. If that's what they want, fine, but don't ask for fucking comments! And Myke Pyro, you have some talent I think, but fishing for compliments and pulling witless emoticon faces is stupid. Go write instead, listen to crit, argue, be passionate etc etc. You have years to grow, good luck with it.

'Don't treat the reader as an idiot. Staff(fordshire)? this doesnt work in any way shape or form' 'You either want floaty poetry, angry poetry, experimental poetry or cliched poetry or a sharp prose piece. Bundling them all together in a poem just creates a bit of a clumsy mess. You have some good images as Juliet says, but a lot of this really is no good at all.' Look - I broadly agree with the sentiments expressed here, but surely you must see that to someone you don't know these statements could seem a bit fierce. I realise that I've quoted them out of context and that you balance them with praise, but this is the kind of tone I would only use with one of my friends who I have been writing with for years, knowing that they would understand implicitly that my opinions were corrigible, possibly wrong, and underscored by a fundamental respect for what they were doing. To pull a metacritique on the critique, your tone is clumsy, occasionally billious, and fails to engage with the piece on its own terms. Prescriptivism does not equal a robust critique.

Juliet, given your apparent inability to read and interpret even simple, short posts on this forum, I doubt I'd be interested in your crit at all, scathing or otherwise.

Bilious has one L doesn't it? There is bags of praise in the original crit, I'm glad you said you quoted out of context. Yes, I can be brusque to readers of a more sensitive nature. I shall offer round fairy cakes with a simper before I offer any further opinions maybe.

I would love some feedback on my stuff, no offence would be taken, I'd just like to know about my style flow etc. While I can see why Pizza's comments could be taken as harsh I personally would like suggestions as to where I'm going wrong or right. Of course the feedback already given about people having to have tough skin in the world of literature is bang on, if writings a hobby then no worries, if not, get used to it. nobody

let me clear, i dont mind indepth constructive critisisim, in fact i welcome it. thats why i treated his comments with respect enough to rewrite the piece, even tho i wasnt satisfied with the results. However the tone of his comments is abusive and i gave up being abused years ago. There seems to be amongst you lot a group of men and women who believe that this site is only for *apecial people* if that is so, surely Tony should really flag that up so people like me who prolly are not ever going to advance that much but do however enjoy it, will be detered from ever coming in. Make it a men only site Tony and add an age bar and selection test for women. Then they can all be happy :)

I hate to blast apart your cosy assumptions that I am a man, but I am in fact a woman. Nice try at the sympathy vote though Maisie.

Pizza.Ready, please, feedback is welcome. I'm serious so please don't be too withering, (unless you have to), so don't take it as a challenge. nobody

pizza's comments were certainly forthright, but if you ask for comments people are going to take that as a licence to tell you what they really think without pussyfooting around, so there.

oh dear the knifes are out, how many times have you lot managed to push somone from this site with this barrage of nastiness?

Jesus...grow up maisie, no-one is trying to push anyone out, just stating that you should be more accepting when offered crit rather than sarcastically saying 'thanks for the destruction of my poem'. (not too sure why making it a men only site would acheive anything as I am also a woman!)

Ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. Personally I think more people have been pushed from the site by the barrage of banality.

Nobody, I am sorry that I have rudely not answered you. I certainly will look out for your work... I have read some before and found it engaging.

oh gee. now i can grow up can i? now im not a middle aged woman??? blimey... i wish more of you had gone

please delete my account here tony i have tried, but it refuses to let me... prolly age ranged or somesuch.... i still think that to get the right mix of victims you should bring in tests .. of some sort. best wishes

can we just end this arguement already? I for one would actually like to dicuss writing on the "Discuss Writing" forum.

Mike, that is exactly what the argument is about, Pizza was TRYING to discuss Maisie's poem and offer advice on making it work better.

i know camus. i just want to get back to discussing it.

actually im not upset at all. i found her abusive about older women and sexist. t think that about says it all. The poems etc have been removed, hopefully i will follow soon. I only sorry that i wrote anything that was good enough to make such a grreat and wonderful human being respond to it all. Funnily enough i do get other avenues for my writing in real life. Isnt that odd. And most proffessionals would never be so personal and rude.

Just read this. Pizza, I'm glad you copied out the poem, otherwise I would not have read it. I have a few things to add (ducks first). I like a crit like Pizza gave. Yes I want to know what's good. I don't always know, a flag shows what is. But I have had some possibly harsh crits (usually from Mark) and was glad. I am learning the trade. Maisie, please don't leave, I have enjoyed your writing. I understood your poem, maybe more than most. Your obscure lines work perfectly if you have been in a shelter. And yes, even in the worst of times, they [the women] are nattering about the knight in shining armour. We, as humans, are programmed to pair up. Even when life has fallen apart, maybe beacause of this, we need more than ever a person to lean on. Lisa