Climate change

Mykle, "us" is who? I've deleted nothing. Maybe Tony did. You've been sniffing glue again haven't you? Well, I did edit one post about 6 months ago, but I put a disclaimer on that and wasn't so quiet about it. I'm always on a pre-fishing trip hysteria btw...sorta like it's always past midnight...same basic theory there buckaroo. Be sure to drink your ovaltine. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Okay, Denver - drinking my Ovaltine now. You're right, I must give up the glue... people have said to me before that I don't split hairs but glue them together:O)

RD as intelligent as you indupitably are, you surely must see the need to confront the major power in the world. Which is America. Look what happened to England. We are only just recovering from our primacy of a 150 years ago, but Tony Blair still thinks of us as a world power. Tee hee shall I tell him or will you. But things are changing so quickly: China is going to be a major - the- major power - in a few years time, and then we have India closely behind. And they're all going to have nuclear bombs. Mine's a double thanks!

I've changed my mind - Denver, not Mississippi, is Sawyer-from-Lost... but in a friendlier way... :-) I hate to bang on about something for which my previous comment received no response, but it is all down to population (the unchecked increasing thereof). It's a basic equation. Everything comes down to this. Less people = less toxic emissions = less damage to the environment. Now obviously I'm not suggesting genocide or the Chinese approach or anything crazy like that, but this is something we (humanity) need to think about. And take seriously. Now or in the near future. Whatever action we (all of humananity - not just America or the EU or Bush or Blair or Radio Denver or Mykle...) take to reduce toxic emissions, it's just going to be a plaster on a gaping wound, which is only going to get bigger, as long as we continue to breed like... well... people. Well that's what I think, anyway... ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

You want us to stop fucking Peeps?

To stop fucking peeps? Oh to stop fucking, Peeps! Amazing what a difference a comma can make... No, just a little more use of the plastic socks would, I think, be in order. Of course, it's all the Pope's fault... ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

Well. obviously you are right after a fashion, Peps. Still, it is not just the number of people that makes the difference - but how they live. If we adopted nuclear power, hydrogen cars etc. then that would help to minimise our effect on the environment. However, it seems likely to me that the availability of fresh water will become the next big challenge. In fact, I think that the UK is the only place I've been recently that has has decent drinking water straight from the tap. Everywhere else you have to drink bottled water and just use the piped stuff for showers and toilets. Of course I don't mean in Europe or the USA. Whatever, the growing world population must and will create increasing strains on the limited resources. The arguement that there are too many people - and it's a growing problem - has been around for decades. I remember one chap thought that it was so important he advocated 'pruning' and offered to be one of the 'pruned'. 'Thinning' will undoubtably come in some form or other - whether it be a pandemic, a world war or ad hoc political solutions. I have said for a while that, now that there are machines to take the place of people then those people become redundant in more ways than one!

I stand corrected Peeps. Or should that be erected? Anyway back to the thread. Mother nature in all her infinite wisdom with a helpful nudge from us, will heat up the planet so much, that we'll lose several billion people through natural disasters. Problem solved.

While that is an obvious possibility, Styx, being a cynic I find it difficult to believe the 'powers-that-be' would be keen to leave the solution of the problem to chance. I would think that since they expend so much effort on controlling the little things in our lives they would be willing to expend a far greater effort in controlling who lives and who dies - in as much as it lies within their power.

>>> Still, it is not just the number of people that makes the difference - but how they live. …True, Mykle, but given that we are probably not going to be able to convince the entire population of the planet to live in ways which are more in tune with the natural rhythms of the planet, even if we convince 90% of the population to do so, by the time the population increases 10-fold (which will happen sooner than one might think), we’ll be back to square one. You see what I’m saying? The population explosion is probably a more long term problem, but the fact that it is long term means that it seems to be being totally ignored by those people who should not be ignoring it – i.e. the powers that be, who are generally only voted into power every few years and therefore are virtually politically prohibited from thinking long-term… the Global Warming thing is pushing it! I think, in some ways, it’s a scarier issue, because of it’s total lack of attention… ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

I don't think you have caught my drift, Peps. I'm saying that I'm sure that the 'powers-that-be' are well aware of the problem and have various 'solutions'. The difficulty has always been in how to implement such 'solutions' without the citizens screaming about 'personal freedoms' or fascist government or genocide.

One last really big question that becomes more important by the day. I've phrased it in an imaginary setting but you will catch the relevance. If in Star Wars, the rebels had not opposed the Emperor how would that have changed things for the majority of the people? In other words: Would the majority actually have had a 'better' life under the fascist emperor who controlled everything and had no opposition? Does having the choice to smoke, get drunk, take heroin, be anti-social, breed with whoever you can when you want - lead to a worse life for all? How important is 'free will' and 'individual freedom' and how far should the 'state' be allowed to go in controlling our actions for our own good?

having seen a pic of RD on his site I can categorically state that he is in NO WAY anything like the drop dead gorgeous Sawyer either in looks or wit!

You ladies & Sawyer... I dunno!! You're right, Mykle, about how 'Population Control' is a political minefield of a topic to breach... As far as I'm concerned, it's solutions lie in education, not control. There does still seem to be too much of a general culture of "Having Babies is Good!" and "We Must all Breed Until We Drop!" I'm not saying having babies is bad, but I feel we need to be encouraged more to see the value in leaving our mark on the world in other ways - e.g. writing a book! I have to say, though, that I find it hard to believe that the powers-that-be have 'solutions'... Your Star Wars proposal is interesting! It does seem to be often found that the "opressed" are happier than the "free" - cf. the collapse of (so-called) communism... ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

Not sure how comfortable I'd feel living under the lordship of Vader, though... ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

For some reason, I find Camilla Parker Bowles attractive...phphphphhhhhhhh. Hey, here's proof positive that global warming is subsiding. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WEATHER/08/03/tropical.weather.ap/index.html Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

You should read this Peps. It's 3 years old and some of its source stats 10 years old but it still makes interesting reading. http://www.chp.ca/commentaries/LessonsInGlobalPopulation_ALL.htm As for stratergies to reduce world population - here's an interesting article from 2002: http://www.theinterim.com/2002/april/02nobelwinner.html

Thanks for those, M - I'll have a look when I'm not at work & I get a min... ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5237038.stm I don't know how to make the above 'live'. As in go red so all you have to do is click on it.

Well the evidence is stacking up against humans causing global warming. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2272083&page=1 As proof positive that it can't be really happening, US Television religious broadcaster Pat Robertson has decided that global warming must be happening. Since Pat Robertson has never been correct about a single thing in his life, I think this pretty much proves it can't possibly be happening. I've also read reports that there are more pirates out there than we think. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

I wanna be a pirate. Pirates are cool. :-) ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

"Conservative Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson said today the wave of scorching temperatures across the United States had converted him into a believer in global warming." I suppose that's how this sort of person comes across all their beliefs. "Oh Em Jee! There's a flower! There must be a God! Oh Em Jee! A heatwave! There must be some sort of 'Global Warming' going on."

An interesting link, Styx. Vaguely amusing and informative. Didn't know that hippos were on the endangered species list. Here's the link again. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5237038.stm

"Well, GA, for a god your omniscience seems a little lacking. While it would be true to say that Blair is in agreement with Bush I'm sure the UK is not. Personally, I'm not even sure that the US is in agreement with Bush - but then that's democracy at work :O)" You're so astute Mykle, before you believe I'm an 'old friend' pull your head out of whatever planet it's on, (six letters.... starting with U is my guess, must cause a nightmare with your neck), the reason I mock you fool is because your point showed you missed my point completely. For someone who tries to word his postings in such an educated fashion you do a bloody good impression of an idiot. The point was, in Noddy terms, just cause Bush is waging war don't mean Denver is, duh, gettit, you know the same as the populace of the UK not being behind Blair you pointed out. You really are a schmuck aintya. Please answer a couple of questions. 1) what do your parents do for a living? 2)where were you educated? 3) what is your real life experience?

Ah, I see where you got your pen-name! People see you coming and say "God almighty - it's him again... "

Ahh, issues from your childhood aye. Is that how you were greeted by your class mates as a child Mykle. They say that you know, people turn to what hurts themselves most in insults, it's how one measures pain. Sadly, though not surprisingly it's lacking in substance, much like yourself, again it's down to experience. While I agree with some of your arguements your simplistic attitude shows a distinct lack of any real understanding in your undoubtedly privilidged life. Idiots like yourself do more harm than good with yor text-book bullshit.

Ha! I go away for a few days and come back to a fucked up email box and disquiet on the forum! I've had several phone calls about my seemingly non-functioning mailbox, but I think it should be ok now. I'm in the process of changing my ISP and it seems every ISP provider hates every other one, and does their best to cause problems. I'm even having trouble getting a mac code from my current ISP. It's their way of telling me I'm a shit for dumping them. Anyway, I see the climate around here hasn't changed at all.

I saw on the news that the London Emergency Committee (or some such) is meeting in October to decide what to do for next summer. If it doesn't rain much, they say, they'll be putting stand pipes in the streets and troops out to shoot anyone who causes trouble. ("Hey! You nickin' my water?" Blam! Blam!). History will record the great water riots of the early 21st century. Except there probably won't be any history, forgot about that. Whata monumental failure of government this is. Why don't they focus on real problems, like reining in the water companies, like even beginning to tackle global warming seriously, like sorting out public transport ... instead of pi**ing about with ID cards and merging police forces. Oh and glad to see the religious nutters are beginningto wake up to cliamte change. They won't worry much though, they all think they're going to heaven. har har.

There'll always be history! It might not always have humans in it, mind... (God, we're an optimistic bunch, aren't we...!) ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

I'm entering this conversation a bit late it seems, but I've done some academic studying on this subject as a geology major (I took a paleoclimatology class last fall and found it utterly fascinating). Radio Denver basically hit the nail right on the head in his first post. It is a political issue, period. The scientific issue (which should be debated OBJECTIVELY) isn't so clean cut. The earth has been warming up for centuries before we even started burning fossil fuels. That's a fact. Therefore, it's not too surprising that the Earth is warming up today. It's been seen throughout history that once the ice starts melting, it has a tendency to continue melting. Ice reflects the sun's energy away. The less ice there is, the hotter the earth gets, the more ice will melt, etc. This will continue cycling until some type of event happens to stop it. The MAJOR types of events have always been continents shifting. The minor events (i.e. what's been happening in the past 66 million years) are less concrete. It's effect has been Ice Age, followed by ice melt, followed by Ice Age ... etc. This period of warming has been going on for some years before the mass burning of fossil fuels was even imaginible. Humans didn't start this event. End of debate. The *real* question is if humans are intensifying it. And, if humans are, is it something that the Earth can handle? (One of my geology professors thinks it's no big deal for the Earth ... the others just say "I don't know.") But even so, according to surface albedo, you can even question if cutting fossil fuel emissions thereby reducing the greenhouse effect would even have an effect!! You see, as I stated, once the ice starts to melt, it is going to continue to melt!!!!!!!! ... And, just for kicks, let's assume that Al Gore et. al. is correct about the effect of fossil fuels on the environment. Let's say theoretically that we cut fossil fuels and the glaciers start building up again. BUT HOLY CRAP, IT DOESN'T STOP, AND WE GET LAUNCHED INTO ANOTHER ICE AGE!!!!!!!!! Good bye Great Britain, you're great cities are now chilling under ice. You see how complicated all this is? -------- MORE DETAILS BELOW IF YOU'RE INTERESTED The weird thing about it all is that an Ice Age can be triggered by circumstances that we can only guess about! Can they be human triggered? ... Nobody knows. Can they be *not* human triggered? YES!!! The climate has been going through cycles after cycles throughout its history! It's been doing this since it's creation. If Earth's history was compressed to one day, we wouldn't have even been here for a second. And Earth has gone through some ***radical*** changes in its history. The big reason why the Earth is in the type of climate it's in is due to the position of the continents. Antarctica is by a pole therefore it can collect a huge amount of ice. This is a major factor but not the only factor (actually there have been times in history that areas near the poles have been nearly tropical ... Greenland hasn't moved a whole heck of a lot and breadfruit trees that are currently found in Hawaii used to live there!!!!) In the time of the dinosaurs, there was an equatorial seaway of hot water that flowed around the earth. We don't have that today. We have two chunks of continents in the middle of everything forcing the ocean's water to go to the poles. This cools down the Earth quite a bit. ... If fossil fuels were able to smash through Panama and the Sahara Desert, that's probably what would to the greatest damage to the global climate. But now I'm going to agree with the "Liberals" but for completely different reasons. I'm 100 percent for getting rid of fossil fuels, because I absolutely hate breathing in that nasty stuff. It's not good for your health and I think it does nothing but contribute to the crankiness of the human race. I'd also just assume that we give the money to American farmers to produce ethanoyl than the guys in the Middle East. The fact that gas has gone up so much in price is the best thing that ever happened in my opinion, because it can indirectly finance alternative energy sources. We even know HOW to get clean burning fuel. (Did you know that cars originally burned on clean-burning ethonoyl until they were all destroyed because of Prohibition? ... Yeah, and do you know where the Prohibition movement started? ........ Kansas.) Anyway, that all I s'pose I have to say.

Here's a cool link: http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/Carboniferous_climate.html Check out the global temperature history graph ... It's frikin' COLD out!!!! And, here's a great paragraph from that site: "The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today. To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today-- 4400 ppm. According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming."

A bit off the point but, the population question always reminds me of PJ O’Rourke’s cynical comment – “Over-population – or, Just Enough of Us, Way Too Many of You.” The world’s population isn’t that fluid. In certain parts of the world the population is increasing whilst in others it’s declining. For instance, you have the French government desperately giving incentives to their nationals to have more children, whilst at the same time stamping down on immigration. Hmmm. I don’t think it’s because they’re bad at maths…

A quote from the article linked by donignacio...hmmm...interesting....hmmmm like this has been a big secret. I like the part about "background noise"...in my mind that includes "chicken littles" "What will our climate be like in the future? That is the question scientists are asking and seeking answers to right now. The causes of "global warming" and climate change are today being popularly described in terms of human activities. However, climate change is something that happens constantly on it's own. If humans are in fact altering Earth's climate with our cars, electrical powerplants, and factories these changes must be larger than the natural climate variability in order to be measurable. So far the signal of a discernible human contribution to global climate change has not emerged from this natural variability or background noise." Don...you win the Radio Denver gold star award for paddling against the stream of popular/commercial culture and actually looking for information that gives historical facts rather than slicing out dire "expert" predictions based on a .0000000005 percent slice of the earths history. Sigmund Freud pretty much nailed it over 100 years ago. The Omnipotence of thought is in full swing on this subject. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes truth. For many, the issue of global warming is a substitute for religion. For others...it is a way to make money. But then again, I've known this all along. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Paleoclimatology was my favorite class! Only glad to "set the record straight."

* Denver, I cannot but help think that for you this thread is about being right. * It seems to me that every discussion is about everyone being right. Some people believe everything they're told and panic, others believe nothing other than their own opinion. My truth tells me that the destruction of vegetation on the scales of the last 100 years has at least as much, if not more, to do with greenhouse gases than fossil fuels. I believe most plants breathe CO2 and exhale O2. In other words, we rely on plants to regenerate oxygen and thereby keep the balance of the air at a livable level. If the ability of the planet to regenerate oxygen is damaged too much we'll all suffocate anyway. The burning of fossil fuels isn't really a problem, it's the waste products that appear to be causing alarm. Perhaps scientists shouild concentrate on ways of transforming the carbon emissions into a benevolent residue, though I'm sure they are working on it. By the way, I believe that I'm the only person on this site that has actually met Denver face to face. Inspite of what the 'yank haters' here would have us believe, he is not a stupid man, in fact he's rather charming and intelligent.

Cripes, I find myself agreeing with Missi on 2 points! Yes, every discussion is about being right... or else what's the point? I believe I'm right, when expressing opinions, but I also believe I may be wrong. I am also averse to the anti-American tone often expressed here. Bush is a man who has done some things I don't agree with, and I'm sure there are other Americans out there who do things I don't agree with, but the fact of their American-ness is irrelevent. 'Yank-hating' clouds the issues. Individual Americans are not responsible for the actions of their 'leader.' I'm certainly not responsible for the actions of Blair and I would be deeply insulted if anyone suggested I am! Oh and Radio Denver does seem intelligent, although I don't necessarily agree with him and he expresses his points in sometimes quite colourful tones... but that don't mean he's not intelligent! (was that 3 points? Or 2-and-a-half...?) ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

I get your frustration at things going off topic... Maybe you should start another thread? I think the problem here, with us seeming to be a pretty intelligent bunch, is that get one of us started on a topic we feel strongly about, and there's just no stopping us! RD feels strongly about something for which he seems to be in a minority, so perhaps he is more determined to get his point across. It's the nature of this forum that sometimes, against the intentions of the original poster, things will mutate into something totally different from the beast that was first released... into the wild... as it were... which can be a good thing! Open discussion and debate, whatever form it takes, about whatever topic, and whatever opinions are espoused, can only be a good thing, but un(?)fortunately it sometimes means original intentions can get lost in the quagmire of discoursive flow... ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

Span, you really do need to get a grip. Starting a thread on the forum doesn't give you ownership or rights as to which course it takes. We've all atarted threads that have been hi-jacked, it's how it works. In any case, Denver qualified his original post by saying it is only his opionion. The fact that you disagree with him doesn't make his opinions invalid and it doesn't make yours valid either for that matter. (I get a bit self-righteous now and then, and me being one of the most opionated people here! I should be shot at dawn.)

I think the Thomas Cook tickbox idea is exactly the sort of thing that is needed. Basically you need to make things easy for people. The problem, I think, comes down to inherent laziness (and I don't claim to be innocent of this!), not that people don't, generally speaking, care. If it is made easy for people add a few pounds (in money, not weight (!)) to their holiday (or whatever) in a way that will make them feel they are "doing their bit," I think most people would probably go for it. And making environmental-friendliness trendier... definitely a goer! ~PEPS~ “You do not truly know someone until you fight them.”

I reckon the way forward for climate change is sit back and wait a thousand years.

Folks, I know I'm pissing some of you off...that is my intention. A debate...that is all. I don't have a closed mind on this, I encourage everyone to judge for themselves, not just follow the herd of cows around the fenced in field. I don't know if or to what extent the world is suffering from the existence of humans, but I know humans are suffering from the existence of humans. All I'm trying to do is point out different points of view. The truth is the truth and our opinion of it makes no difference what-so-ever. Nothing...absolutely...Nothing we do will change what is going to happen to the earth, it is so much bigger than us. We are piss-ants running around on a rock, oblivious to the reality that surronds us. That is all I'm saying. If you want to BUY into the commercial, go right ahead. I become suspictious of things when I see the following happen. 1. Politicians use it as a platform to get elected. 2. It becomes a favorite topic of television. 3. Experts start selling books on the subject and appearing on television. 4. People take on causes for the betterment of Humanity. blah blah blah.... The majority of the world believes in some omnipotent exhaulted mystical being that loves everyone but for some strange reason wants you to kill anyone that doesn't agree. Sigmund Freud pointed out (i know, I know...his is just an opinion too) that people conjure up things that support and augment their fears and allow them to be controlled. They conjure them up to such an extent that it has changed the way civilizations act and bahave. My own opinion of Freud is that he was probably the best there has ever been at explaining why people do what they do. The Michelangelo of thought so to speak. I personally think this is a prime example of what he explained in his writings on human psychology and the origins of totemism. If you haven't read Freud or others of his ilk, then you won't know where I'm coming from. Well, I've said enough...I'm gonna go burn some fossils, drink some beer, belch and fart. See ya. Visit me http://www.radiodenver.org/

Since so many people are fat due to driving everywhere in their car, eating too much food (which has to be transported), lazing around watching Tv, having the heating up too high in Winter etc. Surely a fat tax is the simplest way forward :O)