I think we should al have an ABC bank account

Its a good idea. Someone has already suggested that when you post, you should review something. The other thing is that criticism and creativity are really two sides of the same coin and doing reviews on other writers' work is good practice. I will endeavour to do more. I would like to support the site in whatever way possible. Its a very positive experience. EA

Good idea Sooz Tony There is a module in drupal for this: http://drupal.org/project/userpoints Called userpoints. Using a block on the right listing top userpoints I think will greatly increase the amount of comments. As Sooz says -1 point for a submission and +1 point for a comment

certainly do-able, from a programming point of view, and a very good idea.

I like the idea - we are in site re-build at the moment and once we have it on the new server it'll be a lot easier to knock it around a bit.

http://www.youwriteon.com/ has a clearly defined but slightly onerous system for this kind of thing. http://www.editred.com/ has a less prescriptive 'peer rank' system. One problem to consider is that it doesn't take much effort or help a writer very much if people type: 'Wow! Great read! Thanks for sharing!' at the bottom of their story or poem. That sort of comment's even less meaningful when there's an incentive to do it because there's likely to be fair proportion of people just thanking for the sharing of stuff that they haven't even bothered to read at all.

agreed with bukharin...good idea Sooz but i think it might turn out like b.... says. I think comments generate comments - so if we were to get comment notification this encourages response and interaction - discussion, and (may be) first reading those who review you, if time is limited...i've just found one by Ewan - thank you Ewan :o)

Sounds like a great idea. Some sites require you to do a certain number of reviews in a given time, which is difficult because for most of us the time we can give to the site varies. This sounds like a much better idea.

Do you think we should develop some sort of code of practice whereby if we post a piece, we must review a piece, and in choosing the review piece, we review where no-one else has reviewed before, so that the all-important engagement is spread over as wide a field as possible? This is only a suggestion. I have never visited any other creative writing sites. Does reviewing encourage interactivity? Does it facillitate the animation of the site? I've only just started posting on here but have been very pleasantly surprised...

I disagree. Look at all the people who read our stories and don't donate anything? I write reviews for other sites, but keep my stories & poems for ABC. This means that some competitions won't accept work published on the Internet. I would hate to leave the site because my long-term sickness benefits doesn't allow me to pay to see my work in print.

It would be all too easy to click through the random story button and copy and paste the same "wow, great poem" comment at the bottom of each one. In one lunch-hour I could rack up enough points for all the stories I've posted in five years on the site. I agree that it's been deathly quiet around here lately *holds hand up as guilty as anyone* - but I suspect coercing people into commenting will just lead to crap comments unless you moderate them. Which would not only be yet more work but also a very good way to generate arguments and bad feeling.

How can I comment on this thread, except by pointing out that everyone's right? If you formalise the process in any way, then people will find a way round it; but if you leave it to market forces, then the urge is to post more writing than comments. That's life I'm afraid. So I believe Tony's current strategy of trying to encourage a culture of mutual support is probably the best and only one. So let's just get behind him and comment on as much writing (of merit) that we come across on the site.

I strongly disagree with the idea of enforced commenting, and not just because it would lead to shallow critiques. In my opinion, if someone's only reading what you've written because they're obliged to (or because they want you to read their writing) they aren't reading it at all. In fact, one of the reasons I came to this site was that their didn't seem to be any rules about reviewing/writing before submitting. That put me off zoetrope.com, for example. The best way to encourage more feedback would be to redesign the site so that people have more contact with other people's work. At the moment, all anyone sees is the stuff on the forum and the latest posts/cherry picks. Oh yes, and "Angela Bromley has massive tits". This puts too much emphasis on new material, and ignores the myriad possibilities of the web for searching, labelling and clustering information. Look at flick to see what I mean. You can tag photos, place them on a map, add them to groups, collect them in sets, have them printed, search them according to an algorithm that attempts to rank by interestingness, write notes, comments, add testimonials about other photographers, and lots more. All these things make it much easier and more enjoyable to find work you like by other people (not just their latest stuff either). And this leads naturally to more feedback. I realise all this requires heavy duty designing and programming, especially considering the sites limited budget, but I think it's the best way to open up people's work to a larger audience. Of course, some of the stuff on flickr is photo specific. But we could have (e.g.) audio recordings, story groups, clustering/ranking algorithms, tags (who needs genres in 2008?), settings (Shanghai erotica, anyone?), printable pdfs, podcasts, and lots more. At the moment the search bar built into the site doesn't even seem to work (it searches the forum but not the stories). Tip: replace it with a google site search. Ok rant over. I fear I'm getting a name for myself for bitching about the site. One day I'll build my own, then Tony can come on and slam it.

I think useful critique is difficult, a work in and of itself (it is a profession) and maybe a separate and distinct skill set from writing poems/stories. If I read something I really like, I know why but only occasionally say so. There is a lot of work here I love that I don't comment on. There is a lot of work here that isn’t my cup of tea that I think is nevertheless really well done. Commenting in a thoughtful and useful way is a whole additional dimension of involvement and I can only steal away approx 3-6 hours per week for things literary, which is a shame. It might be good for each post to have a count of recommendations by other writers, so the Read count, a Writer's Recommendations count (?) and the cherries would remain the house and editor's picks. It would be very cool if each writer can maintain a list of top five pieces by other writers that they recommend with optional crit text. This would be an incentive for those with interest and talent for crit further develop it as a separate body of work. It would be more like writing a review, mimic the publishing industry. I like reading reviews, sometimes more than the work.

As someone who runs a fairly busy site myself, I'd like to say that, in my opinion, johnshade has got it just about right. http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

Yeah, like a cross between Flikr (for tagging work) and the slick deviantART (for personal profiles and overall presentation). Enzo.. www.thedevilbetweenus.com

Agreed dendrite... allowing people to flag certain stories as favourites is important for several reasons. First it gives writers more feedback about which of their stories are more popular (hits alone count for little, since there's no guarantee the reader finished the story, let alone liked it). Second it lets you see what kind of tastes authors have in other people's work. Third it provides input to ranking and clustering algorithms... e.g. you could have a system that automatically recommended stories to you, based on your previous favourites (like amazon). andrea - looking at ukauthors I see you already have a lot of the features i was talking about. Maybe I should start posting stuff there too.

I agree with a lot of what's said by johnshade. We will be looking at major developments in the not too distant future - the server has been fixed over the weekend, for example - and all of this will be very much taken into account. Thanks for your input and keep it coming!

This might not be of any advantage, but has anyone else submitted thier work to Helium? I was invited by a mutual friend, drawn by the lure of publication and making money. I soon saw that they have a formula I had come across on an old UK site. (sorry, I can't remember the name,it was years ago.) The point is that once you post a review you are then presented with two reviews (on completely different topics), which you have to compare. Does anyone at ABC really want to go down that road? Each author has their own style. It might not be something you would write yourself, but you can see what is good about it. I like the freedom of ABC and I also think I'm a better writer because of the site. As an older author I sometimes feel a bit afraid to comment. the story/poem moves me or leaves me feeling, 'hey this is good' But what if I make a comment that sounds silly? I read about 70% of the latest when I post myself. Sometimes I come on just to read. Does anyone else think this holds then back?

I think the lack of critiquing culture at abc has arisen, in part, because many members don't want their work critiqued. Most say they do, and pay lip service to the idea of constructive criticism, but when it comes down to the crunch, it becomes obvious that they really, really don't. Having been on this site for years now, I can remember several high profile tizzies and storming offs by very vocal members of the site who really ought to have known better. Let's be blunt - abc members are very much a mixed-ability bunch. That's what Tony always wanted the site to be about, and that's what it is. The more skilled, 'serious' writers on the site tend to offer detailed, useful critiques on pieces that pique their interest, but such quality responses take time and effort which you can't expect them to dish out willy-nilly. Much as I think serial posters like Biggus are a coven of cackhanded Antichrists, their right to post in their own way is a fundamental part of the site's egalitarian spirit. I think forcing people to comment on work is a recipe, as John says, for a slew of crappy, 'lovely - great images' comment spam that helps nobody. And, as I've said, the people who complain the loudest about a lack of attention are almost always the first to act wounded and shrill when somebody finally takes the time to tell them what they actually, honestly think of their work.

Hi Rokkit. Your comments make me smile because I've been on the wrong end of some of the tizzies to which you refer! It raises a valid point - it can be a minefield judging just how honest to be with people. And sometimes I feel it's not worth it: my cursor's in the comment box, my fingers are poised over the keyboard - and then I think better of it and hit the "back" button!

Hah! I agree with Tim as well. This is why, even though we do HAVE the userpoints system on UKA, it has never been implemented. http://www.ukauthors.com http://www.ukapress.com

I look at it this way. I post on abc to get my work read - like everyone else. If a story I write gets a cherry - it gets read more. If I get a comment, or even a number of comments on a story - it gets read more. If someone posts in the forum about my story - it gets read more. But I also know that if I comment or post on another users story - my work gets read more, as people click on my username. Also I know that if I don't repay the favour I will get less comments and read less. I think there is a difference between a comment and a critique - abc is a high traffic site and there is nothing more frustrating than seeing your story you worked hard on just getting swept away with the rest of the days submissions - I want feedback - I don't care if its just "I like this" - its letting me know that you've read my story - this to me is a comment and it should be encouraged and rewarded. On the other hand - if you wrote a great critique more people would read your work too (well at least me) as they would click on your username. Why are users being discouraged from leaving simple comments when it is all the feedback some of us have for our work?

i e. What's wrong with "lovely - great images"? I would welcome this comment ....its better than nothing & it shows you took the time to read my story ...

I'm not opposed to simple supportive comments. What I'm opposed to is create a system that provides a specific incentive to make them. Under the present system, if someone chooses to say "lovely - great images" there's a fairly high chance that they have read your story/poem and appreciate the images in it. If an incentive system was introduced where people were rewarded for the number of comments made, many people would copy and paste these kind of comments at the bottom of lots of stuff they hadn't read.

I take your point bukharinwasmyfather. I think what I'm trying to say is that simple comments or 'shallow critiques' should be encouraged and not discouraged. i.e. there's a lot of work I read I would like to comment on with just 'great' 'cool' 'I like this' but I am put off for fear of being considered 'shallow'. But I took the time to read your story - wouldn't it be nice to get an acknowledgement no matter how simple? - if more people did this I'm sure it would provoke lengthier critiques anyway....

"bukharinwasmyfather" First time I've laughed out loud at the internet this week. Still lots more comments on this thread than recent submissions to the site, I notice. Enzo.. www.thedevilbetweenus.com

soz bukharinwasmyfa... :)

That is very much in hand Luigi - it's high on the list for site alterations. We have just spent a great deal of time - and a little money - on rebuilding the server, which was in great need. That's now done and we can do some tweaks!

I think 'Bukharin was my father' should become abctales' new 'I'm Spartacus'. No, Bukharin was my father!