DNA's Discoverer Says Black People Are Stupid.

Almost all academics from several disciplines that cover the topic agree on two things. The IQ gap between blacks and whites is 1. real 2. statistically significant What they disagree about is the cause. Admitting that the IQ gap is real is not saying that 'black people are stupid'. In fact european Caucasians are not top of the IQ league, Hassidic Jews are followed by Eastern Asians then Caucasians. Neither are those of sub-saharan African descent bottom. I believe the causes of this are probably 1. socio-economic (poor educational opportunities, diet and so on). However, I don't think the socio economic reasons can't account for the entire statistical difference. 2. the fact that 'IQ' is measured by tests that developed out of 'middle-class white' educational methods and the tests favour different groups but I also believe that it is possible that genetics play some part. After all, why do the chinese team always win the international maths olympiad for gifted young mathemeticians? Looking for a genetic cause isn't bigotry or racist but because people perceive it as being so, scientists are effectively being strangled from researching the causes of the gap (or perhaps dismissing any genetic cause if that is the case). It may just be that different racial groups learn better in different ways. TRUE: average IQ varies among racial-ethnic groups FALSE GENRALISATION: black people are stupid who was it that said this? Watson or Crick? jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

It was Watson. This is a quote from The Guardian's latest report: 'Prof Watson attracted a deluge of criticism for his comments in a Sunday Times interview, reportedly saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really". 'He was quoted as saying he hoped everyone was equal, but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".' He has since offered an apology, hinting that he was misquoted, although he has not clarified exactly what his views are. This is a man who has previously said that he thinks women should have the right to abort a pregnancy if there was a test which could prove the child would be homosexual. He has made a number of other 'controversial' comments over the years. If he was misquoted, as he claims, I wish he would make a very clear statement giving his real position on the subject. Otherwise, he will have to live with the fact that many people will think that, brilliant scientist or not, he's a complete plonker. Somehow I don't think it will bother him too much.

"What it does not do is take into account that the tests are not being run on an equally educated group of candidates". I totally agree on this Patmac! I would like to see new research carried out only on large samples within the private education ( on non-scholarship) sector. Here we can assume all the kids are from relatively affluent homes and the parents are encouraging. White children dominate in the private sector but there are enough children with minority ethnic backgrounds to be able to take a good statistical sample but I don't think schools/ parents would comply. What I would expect to see is the IQ gap in such a sample narrow but not disappear. It would narrow overall to an extent that it might even be statistically insignificant, however there would still be significant differences in particular areas. For example I still believe those of Chinese and Korean descent would do better in Maths, computing and physical sciences. But if this research in a sample of similarly educated children from similar social background STILL shows a significant IQ gap, where do we go from there ? Identifying the trends and different skills, talents and abilities in different ethnic groups is not racist. It only becomes racist when that information is used to justify abusing a particular group on the grounds of a perceived 'inferiority'. It isn't an entirely new concept from Watson. Professor Richard Lynn of the Uni of Ulster wrote a book called 'IQ and the Wealth of Nations'. This shows the correletion between national average IQ and GDP, ergo IQ is an important contributing factor to a nation's wealth. Critics argue that there are too many exceptions, and poverty stunts performance in IQ tests and there is an IQ-poverty trap! I don't agree with Watson. I think there are far far greater factors in determining the economic outlook for a nation. But I don't believe that Watson, Lynn et al should be branded as racist and held back in their research by PC universities as has happened in the case of Chris Brand who was IMO unjustly dismissed from Edinburgh University. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

I'm not an expert on the genetics. I agree that scientists shouldn't be prevented from research whether people from different backgrounds learn differently by being labelled racist at every turn. That said, I think the only reason that this specific comment from Watson is considered as anything other than bigotry is that he's a scientist. I don't think there's really a serious scientific basis for the argument that social policies in Africa have failed because Africans are not clever enough.

Research can help if it shows that different groups learn better with different methods. But I do agree that more importantly black boys need to be encouraged to study harder and take responsibility for things like getting to bed early on a school night! Another factor that people don't like talking about is accent. Your employment prospects are low(er) if you are mumbling, dropping letters or using double negatives whether you have a degree or not and this holds back some ethnic groups as well as the white underclass. I can't remember which party suggested the 3 Rs should be expanded to the 4 Rs (Reading, wRiting, aRithmetic and aRticulation) and I couldn't agree more. But change has to come from within the black community. And recent reports that showed poor Asians doing better at school than poor blacks had many people asking the question 'what is is that poor Asian kids have that blacks do not?' jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

Mandela on his recent visit to the UK said Black children need black role models and I think he's on the right lines but I don't agree that role models or 'heroes' have to be the same ethnic group, social background or even gender as you. My role models and heroes were all upper class or upper-middle class white, male academics. I am mixed race, lower middle - working class female but I believed I could achieve my academic goals and the opportunities existed for me to do so. The problem is the myth of opportunity. It isn't enough to provide opportunity which seem available to all on the surface (such as free libraries and free education). How do we encourage individuals within groups where deprivation has been handed down through generations? "But through which channel ought this encouragement to be given?" I wish there was an easy answer to this. Whatever the answer may be, and I know as a die-hard capitalist makes my view unpopular here, I don't believe local councils should be pumping as much money into these various youth schemes that seem to be springing up everywhere. In fact, the Hammersmith Tory candidate who himself is black and has worked with black youth for many years admits these schemes just don't work and don't stick. One of the problems, he says, is that nobody has ever challenged these young people's behaviour. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

What is IQ? Intelligence. Or intelligence quotient. What is intelligence? The ability to learn quickly? To assimilate lots of facts? To solve problems? What sorts of problems? What sorts of facts? What are the agendas (conscious or otherwise) of those who devise IQ tests or those who use the results of such for whatever purposes? Is it even possible to devise an IQ test which is unbiased enough to be applicable over a vast range of personal, cultural and geographical experiences? IQ can be useful in a wider context, alongside a number of other scientific/educational tools. It is one of those things, however, which it is all too easy to hold up as an inviolable scientific device and wave around in a “This is the way to measure intelligence!” kind of a way… It is not! Just as a small plastic ruler is not the way to measure the distances between atoms (or planets)… pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?

Conventional IQ tests measure a range of cognitive processes including numeracy, lateral thinking, verbal fluency etc. However it fails to measure a lot of other things - in a similar vein that's why the 11+ exam was so unfair. You had to pass in all areas including maths and english so somebody like my sister who isn't particularly academic would have gone to a secondary modern school and not had the opportunity to go to uni. Under a conventional IQ system there would be no measure of her exceptional musical talent that was evident from quite an early age. She plays several instruments, has a degree in music and is now a successful deputy headteacher. (that said I still think grammar schools are a good thing btw) But before we rubbish away IQ tests because of what they can't tell us, we should at least note what they can tell us. They are a fairly good indication of future prospects in several key areas such as employment, earnings, illegitimate pregnancy and chances of being incarcerated. jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

"Before we can use these role models to inspire our black school children we need to locate them." Why do they have to be black?! As per my earlier point, because I wasn't brought up in a climate where a big deal was made about ethnicity , I happily adopted white, middle-class role models and that served me very well. I never once stopped and thought, oh gosh, I can't go to King's and study bioscience like Rosalind Franklin because she's white and was born into an affluent British family and was educated at a private all girl's school... whereas I am but a mixed (African) race state school oik with poor parents. I just got on with it!!! jude "Cacoethes scribendi" http://www.judesworld.net

sorry tiple post removed

I'm dubious about the black role model stuff. I certainly don't think famous role models are the issue. I think Jude is right that if/when you decide you want to study bioscience, the race of the bioscientists you look up to isn't the major factor. The problem is that young people need to be reaching the point where they're likely to aspire to things other than celebrity and crime in the first place. One way or another the problem is based around the extent to which people, black or white, believe some form of hard work and playing by the rules will get them what they want in life.

I think that the IQ test was devised by that left wing liberal Professor Hans Von Eysenck. It surprisingly leaned towards white middle class westeners. I wonder how we'd do if we were set an IQ test set by an African academic? There is a story I was told when I was in the dry house some years ago by one of the monks. Which is the reverse of what is being written about here. Two white men are in the forest in Africa and get hopelessly lost. When they don't reach their destination search parties are sent out. They are found two weeks later having starved to death. The black search party say tut tutting, 'the white man must be very stupid, they are surrounded by food yet they starve to death.'

PJ: "But before we rubbish away IQ tests because of what they can't tell us, we should at least note what they can tell us." Oh, I'm not rubbishing them, Jude... In fact I basically agree with what you say! :) They have to be taken in the wider context and not be heralded as the test for "intelligence"... pe ps oid What is "the art of tea"? And what does an "odd courgette" look like?

I agree with quite a lot of what has already been said.Bottom line though is that anyone wanting to succeed in this sort of society has to espouse our traditional values.Working or middle class values include hard work,planning, and a good grasp on reality.One of the differences between the successful and the not is magical thinking in the unsuccessful,that one will become an instant singing/big brother/lottery celebrity.To really succeed one needs to be able to plan and carry out the plan and certainly shuffling in late badly dressed and speaking in a muddled way will not get any sort of job.Multiculuralism has not served those it sought to serve.An example recently.A local Kentish agricultural college feels it needs to find black tutors to teach farming for reasons of cultural diversity.How barking!We need to teach all kids to manage self discipline and to accept boundaries. Whether or not genetics leave black Africans disadvantaged as far as our type of IQ poor maternal nutrition will have an effect on the infant brain.