A publisher's view of undiscovered talent

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Tue, 2005-10-04 11:55

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1581278,00.html

From Saturday's Guardian review, a publisher outlines her difficulties in trying to give new, undiscovered writers a chance to be published by her. It's a valuable insight into the thinking behind book publishing, as this is a woman who sincerely wants to help new writers get published. Read the full article, and [pay attention especially to the chunk I've extracted below:

"I want to be a writer. All I dream of is being a published novelist. Writing is the only thing I want to do," they said passionately and I do understand. After 50-odd years, believe it or not, I still feel the same. But a longing to write, even accompanied by dedication, really is not enough. Ability/talent and some sense of what makes a novel appeal to readers are essential too.

"I wouldn't want to be in any way commercial," one woman wrote. Yet "commercial" only means "saleable" - it is not synonymous with "rubbish".

What does a publisher do? Initially, risks their own money to pay the author, then the book manufacturers, and then tries to persuade booksellers to stock the book, in the hope that people will want to spend money on it. It is a tough commercial world. Why would any publisher produce an unsaleable novel? What use would a few thousand copies of it be stacked in my warehouse? If you despise commerce in general or believe literature should be outside and above it, the only thing to do is put up your books to be read free on the internet.

A love of writing books should spring from a love of reading them but as I waded on through the submissions I wanted to engrave one sentence on all their hearts - read more, write less

Read the great novels, the classic novels past and present. It is the only way to learn and above all learn how to tell a story. But few had one to tell. When I said so, I received sneers in return."

Is this unbridled grumpiness, or does she have a point? As a writer, rather than a publisher, what do you make of all this? It strikes me that this is a valuable view which adds a lot to the kinds of perennial debates that we have around here.

Cheers,

Mark Brown, Editor, www.ABCtales.com

Tue, 2005-10-04 12:21

pepsoid

I brought up the issue of 'ethics' in Saturday's Creative Alliance meeting - to what exent are we willing to compromise our 'unique voice' in order to sell our work? It's a difficult one! Obviously we all need to pay the bills, so if we want to be 'professional' writers, we need to produce sellable work, but how much should we sacrifice our 'artists/writers integrity' for commerciality? Over to you! "P"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Tue, 2005-10-04 12:36

Katerina

I think it actually makes a refreshing change for a publisher to make any comment at all. Any advice that can give us frustrated writers an insight into how to get our work published, has got to be a good thing. I was feeling a bit down on Saturday as yet another rejection slip dropped through the letterbox, especially as they dont give any idea as to why they reject things. I have come to the conclusion that the womens magazine market has its own little established group of writers, and will not use anyone else. Even if those established writers produce absolute rubbish, the magazines still use them, and some of the stuff I have read in them recently s testimony to this. But, I'm never down for long, especially as I have some more ideas for another short story. Kat x

Kat x

Tue, 2005-10-04 12:39

markbrown

Pepsoid, I suppose the thing there is to make a division in your mind between stuff you expect to get other people's money for and stuff you do for your artistic vision. If you are throwing your stuff out into a crowded marketplace, it stands a far greater chance if knows the rules of that marketplace. I don't think that producing stuff that other people might find enjoyable necessarily compromises your unique voice. I'm not sure that something being 'commercial' is that tided to a lack of uniqueness. Some books catch people's imaginations and others don't, not all are levelled into a homogeneous bland whole. I think it just takes a bit of lateral thinking. If you want to write for yourself and explore less commercial topics, styles, lengths or ideas you need to find outlets for that. They are out there, but they aren't likely to earn you a huge amount of money. If you want to look toward getting a bit of cash, use your imagination and apply your 'unique voice' to something that is more likely to hit a chord with more people, either in topic, tone or style. The most interesting writers, I feel, are the ones that bring the fruits of their less commercial experiments to less experimental works, so what you get is a book that doesn't baffle but does bring with it lots of interesting, odd or new ideas. Cheers, Mark Brown, Editor, www.ABCtales.com

Tue, 2005-10-04 12:53

pepsoid

Absolutely, Mark! Personally I'm coming at this from the point of view of someone who is as yet unpublished and has only very recently starting thinking seriously about getting published. I'm hoping something like my Larry & Mick stories are 'publishable'... I'm starting to learn there are a lot of potential markets out there! The trick, it seems to me, unless you absolutely have to be the next J.K. Rowling, is not necessarily in tailoring your work for a particular market, but in finding the market(s) which suit your particular style. I'd like to make my living from writing, but I'm also not afraid to explore different & more varied paths to creative commercial expression - collaborating with a visual artist to produce a comicbook, writing for radio, etc, etc, etc... Or even writing jingles or advertising slogans if I find I have a talent for it! It's gotta beat working in an accounts office... "P"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Tue, 2005-10-04 13:18

Katerina

Ha Pepsoid, I agree entirely. I am pretty good at writing limericks, rhymes and verses, so have been thinking of writing for the greetings card market. I am willing to write for anyone that will have me! Seriously tho, I am pretty adept at turning my hand to most things writing wise, as I've always been a creative person. I can draw too, usefull for childrens stories. And even if I do spend my life writing for greetings cards, it sure beats working in a funeral directors. Now there are some stories I could tell you all! I did actually think about writing a book about it and calling it - wait for it ..... 'Lifting the lid'. Kat x

Kat x

Tue, 2005-10-04 13:41

Laura Callender

When I read the comments by the publisher above, I likened it to the programme X Factor. Iâ€™m sorry to downgrade this conversation, but on that show, you witness people who truly believe they can sing, yet obviously canâ€™t. You can feel the frustration from the judges. I imagine this is much the same for publishers. If they could print every little quaint or thoughtful piece of work it would be fantastic, certainly more entertaining for us consumers than X Factor, however it simply isnâ€™t possible. I think the publisher is trying to make writers accept that their job isnâ€™t easy, they donâ€™t want to smash peopleâ€™s dreams, but they do have a job to do. I respect her honesty here. I think everyone should go for their dreams, but their must come a point for some when it knocks them so far off track, they have a poor quality of life. I think this publisherâ€™s view was very responsible. God knows I donâ€™t read enough, and my limited vocabulary and typos speak for that. If you want to be published you should put the time in, although writing is a hobby, if you want to earn money from it - it should be treated with the same professionalism as any job. Good luck to those on this path! I only wish I could be ha ha!

Laura

www.collaborativewritingchallenge.com

Tue, 2005-10-04 13:45

Foxy

A funeral directors! You should go for it Katarina, surely it has to be a rich source for a James Herriot style anecdotal book.... Lifting the Lid, great title too :)

Tue, 2005-10-04 13:56

Katerina

Hi Foxy, pleased to 'meet' you. Mmm I did seriously think about it. This is a strange thing to say about working in a funeral directors, but we really did have some laughs. Apart from actually arranging the funeral with poor bereaved people, there are lots of other aspects of the job. You also would not believe the things we used to get asked. However, I'm not sure people really want to know what goes on. There is still a lot of taboo and fear surrounding death, however much we tried to bring it into the 21st century, and I think that people would rather remain ignorant than know what goes on. Still, maybe one day. Kat x

Kat x

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:16

#10

Foxy

Hi Katarina Well I, for one, would be interested in finding out what goes on behind the doors at an undertakers, and you could explode one or two myths about what happens to the bodies... do they really drain the fluids from the armpit?

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:22

#11

Katerina

If the relatives want to see their loved one in the chapels of rest, then the body is embalmed. This means that the blood is drained out, and a preserving fluid (usually formaldehyde mixed with water), is put in. The blood is drained out of the heart with a metal rod called a trocar, and the preserving fluid is administered through an artery, usually the carotoid artery in the neck. But it can be done through an artery in the armpit, or wrist, or top of the leg, or ankle. Wherever there is easy access. Kat x

Kat x

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:27

#12

pepsoid

I suspect there is a market for funereal anecdotes - Six Feet Under, anyone? I agree with you, Emma, and I agree with Mark also... but I am the eternal optimist! I truly believe that if you are determined enough and if you have the talent, then you can make it. I do, though, seemingly casually throw out that phrase, 'if you have the talent'... You have to be brutally honest with yourself and find others who will also be brutally honest with you... Maybe we are too nice to each other on ABCtales! "P"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:33

#13

Laura Callender

Iâ€™m loving six feet under, someone just forced me to watch the box set, I saw one of those drains in the neck, very funny. Id love to read a humorous story about your experiences Katrina. Go on, just for us, you must have something we can have a sneaky peak of? And there is nothing wrong with being the eternal optomist P, it beats being boringly realistic like me ha ha. I also believe in fate, so if its meant to be, it will!

Laura

www.collaborativewritingchallenge.com

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:44

#14

Katerina

ok, I will tell you about one thing that happened once. We had this veyr large lady that had died, and I mean LARGE. We needed to specially order a coffin in for her because she wouldnt fit in the ones we usually used. It took four men to get her in her coffin. Then her relatives wanted to come and see her, and I was training to prepare the bodies for viewing, which meant closing their eyes, dressing them etc. The guy that I worked with, called me out to the mortuary to help him, because he couldn't get to her face. When I got there, the poor womans face was completely covered by her huge breasts, which because she was lying down and naked, and due to their large size, had totally obscured her head. A few days after the funeral, (she was cremated), we had a call from the crematorium to say they would have to impose a weight limit, because it had taken them 2 days to ladle out all the fat that had melted from her. Gross or what! Kat x

Kat x

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:53

#15

pepsoid

I also very much believe in fate, Emma... and synchronicity... and that sometimes, when you are travelling along the 'right path' (whatever that means), things will weirdly fall into place. Actually, there is one thing I have just thought of, relating to something Mark said above, which I don't agree with... I don't believe one has to read 'the classics' if one's writing style is far removed from such. Certainly, I think one should be as widely read as possible, and occasionally experiment with styles outside of what you normally read 'for pleasure,' but I personally don't necessarily think my Larry & Mick stories (for example) would be enhanced by a knowledge of Bronte or Hardy or Austen. Sorry, Mark! I do, though, believe, one can learn from, as I said, styles outside of your normal remit... But then what do I know...? :-) "P"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Tue, 2005-10-04 14:57

#16

pepsoid

PS. cross-posting means I have just got around to reading Kat's breast-related anecdote... To quote a certain famous ex-sitcom star... 'Could that be more gross?' !!!

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Tue, 2005-10-04 15:11

#17

camus

* but I personally don't necessarily think my Larry & Mick stories (for example) would be enhanced by a knowledge of Bronte or Hardy or Austen.* Awww...so we're not going to be graced by the literary delights of 'Larry and Mick take over the tenancy of Wildefell Hall' or 'Larry and Mick Wuther at the Heights' then Pepsoid?

Tue, 2005-10-04 15:20

#18

pepsoid

>>> Awww...so we're not going to be graced by the literary delights of 'Larry and Mick take over the tenancy of Wildefell Hall' or 'Larry and Mick Wuther at the Heights' then Pepsoid? ...Hmm, you've got me thinking, now... Incidentally, just to be totally contrary, I love what I've read so far of Jasper Fforde, who's books are so-o-o influenced by 'the classics,' and yet also have the Total Silliness of other authors I like. So there are, of course, exceptions to my... ahem... 'rule' (or non-rule) "P"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Wed, 2005-10-05 12:51

#19

markbrown

Pesoid, it wasn't me who was thundering that everyone should read the classics it was Susan Hill, the author of the article! I think that there is a fair point there, though. Larry & Mick might not benefit from a reading of The Tenant of Wildefell Hall, but they might benefit from a reading of Waiting for Godot... The point here is that wider reading is extremely important, because that's where you find out how you can make things work, and find new techniques, ideas and methods. We can argue for months about what should be in the canon of classics and what isn't, but I think the advice is sound. Awareness of other things is always good, I reckon. What about this extract from the article, though: "Fiction-as-therapy may be a useful exercise in personal understanding or as part of the counselling process but it sure as hell does not make for an interesting read. I quickly learned to recognise the warning light, which flashed within the first few sentences. Most of the worst novels were written in the first person narrative present tense. "I open one eye. My eyeball hurts. I look around a dim room strewn with unwashed plates, dirty cups, stained underwear. I feel despair filter through me. I do not know where I am." Who feel a bit shaky when confronted by that? I used to write like that, and I feel like Susan Hill has stood me up at the front of the class to give me a dressing down. Does the urge to write always come from personal miserableness? Do people confuse' unique voice' with 'depressing, solipsistic indulgence'? Is there some idea that commercial means clean, shiny, new and happy? What do you reckon? Cheers, Mark Brown, Editor, www.ABCtales.com

Wed, 2005-10-05 13:04

#20

Laura Callender

Spot on, this last quote pin points me. Thatâ€™s exactly how I feel about my writing. Iâ€™m trying to move away from personal experiences as I know that this is when the challenge really starts, thatâ€™s why Iâ€™ve been asking for titles or one line starters, to send me on a different path. Mark, Is there any way you could introduce something along the lines of 'Challenge of the month', to give us aspiring writers something gritty to work on. Or is this the point where we should be able to find the inspiration ourselves? Itâ€™s so hard to shift gears, but I certainly want to. I donâ€™t feel like that point dressed me down, it just confirmed for me that I should try and attempt something new!

Laura

www.collaborativewritingchallenge.com

Wed, 2005-10-05 13:26

#21

Foxy

Oh Mark you've gone and got me all worried now because almost all of my writing is in first person... Past tense though...

Wed, 2005-10-05 14:27

#22

pepsoid

Oops! Sorry for mis-quoting you there, Mark! Like you said (or suggested), I think it comes down to what we consider 'the classics' to be. Re the extract... dunno about 'shaky'... a little scared, maybe! Years ago, I used to attempt to write from a basis of 'personal miserableness' - didn't work! Came out all wrong and pretentious-like. My life is far from perfect these days, I have my issues, but I tend to try & turn around the negatives into humour - I mostly try & write to compensate for my 'personal miserableness' - to cheer myself up, if you like! I like the idea of a 'Challenge of the Month,' Emma... re my camel challenge, perhaps...? Although I'm thinking maybe we should set challenges ourselves, rather than putting that on Mark's shoulders... unless you fancy the challenge of setting us a monthly challenge, Mark...?? "P"

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Wed, 2005-10-05 14:44

#23

markbrown

If you like, I can certainly set a monthly challenge. I like doing stuff like that, because at heart, I feel I am something of the stern school mistress. I'll have a think and post one up! Cheers, Mark Brown, Editor, www.ABCtales.com

Wed, 2005-10-05 15:01

#24

pepsoid

>>> If you like, I can certainly set a monthly challenge. ...Yay for Mark! >>> I like doing stuff like that, because at heart, I feel I am something of the stern school mistress. ...Ooh, Matron... >>> I'll have a think and post one up! ...Can't wait! (PS. I've just put 'Waiting for Godot' into my mobile phone-based 'suggested reads'...)

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Wed, 2005-10-05 15:22

#25

Laura Callender

Ha ha, does that mean you are going to wear a skirt Mr Mistress!? Im so excited, I hope quite a few people have a bash and a play with it, not just me and P, guess only time will tell. So as a mistress are you saying that you are also going to offer us feedback? :-) Em.

Laura

www.collaborativewritingchallenge.com

Wed, 2005-10-05 15:27

#26

pepsoid

>>> So as a mistress are you saying that you are also going to offer us... ...Phew! Glad that sentence ended how it did.

The All New Pepsoid the Second!

Wed, 2005-10-05 19:29

#27

poetjude

...A long time ago, we were talking about our hopes for the new year. Fish said, "peace...blah blah" and then added "and a whitbread prize for first novel would be nice" Well that's my ambition too! No, not to win a whitbread prize but for Fish to. So long as I can come to the award night! I don't want to be a published writer...I just want fun nights out! (oh and God)

Sat, 2005-10-08 15:33

#28

maddan

I think I'm sliding back into it.

Sat, 2005-10-08 20:00

#29

Jack Cade

Hmm. Does no one else find it suspicious that, whenever publishers, editors and people involved in the book industry deign to give advice, they always say something like, "And I can't stress enough.... this really is the most important thing ever... you have to READ. Don't write. READ. READ MORE." Surely we'd raise an eyebrow if an estate agent advised us very strongly to move house more frequently? Personally, I think publishers should stop trying to shatter people's delusions by publishing articles in the Guardian, and instead do it by publishing good quality books. If they didn't go on putting out barely readable drivel, surely not so many people would read it and think, "I could do that!" Seriously. I was in the children's section of Borders this week looking for Diana Wynne Jones, and I decided to pick up G.P.Taylor's 'Wormwood' and open it on a random page (remembering he is Rokkitnite's mortal nemesis.) No joke - first sentence was something like: "The light filtered down through the trees making criss-cross patterns on the forest floor and competing in the shadows with the sun to make the whole earth seem blacker." Two paragraphs down there was a tree 'whose bark was turning to ooze and leaking out of the wound in its trunk'. I haven't read such nonsensical bilge since I got a sneak peak at the quality of some of the writing on UEA's creative writing MA two years ago...

Sat, 2005-10-08 22:01

#30

rokkitnite

I think abctalers are getting pretty sick of hearing my views on this subject, so I'll simply say that I wish everyone the best of fortune in writing their masterpiece and finding an appreciative audience. Oh, and Jon's right - GP Taylor is absolute balls.

Sun, 2005-10-09 02:53

#31

span

Six reasons for being talented 1 - Because you were born that way 2 - Because of your sister. Your sister said that you would never amount to jack-shit. 3 - You wanted to know what Extra Aged Appenzellar cheese tasted like. 4 - Because there are certain people who think they are ever so good, while in fact they stink of middling. 5 - Because sometimes, you look at your good friends, and think: don't touch me, you reek of publishing contracts. 6 - You were carrying the smell of "The Alibi". Piss, piss, piss. Spack and Span think that Pierre Javert is a twat.

Mon, 2005-10-10 22:16

#32

d.beswetherick

I gave up writing about eighteen months ago in order to read more and thereby become a better writer. I've read carefully through the whole of Chekhov, Beckett, and Pinter - because those were the three writers I thought could teach me the most (and they have: they've taught me so much that I feel I've become a better writer without having written anything). So I really am doing what Hill advises: reading more, writing less. I've also been teaching myself Ancient Greek and German to add to my passable French, Latin, and Italian. I've been studying wild flowers and plants in some depth. I've read the Old Testament and extensively investigated Greek myths and legends. My belief is that all these procedures can only deepen my knowledge of things and words and increase the resonance of my reality. Now aged fifty one, I suppose I don't "need" to be published the way some younger people do. I gave up a proper job five years ago to write; within a year I realised I'd cut my expenses so efficiently that I could get by on the little money I earn from the occasional drawing, and so I feel no financial need to justify my odd existence (I may spend a month doing little else but reading books). I stopped writing after a six-month period in which I'd made it onto the shortlist of some good prizes, including a BBC screenplay competition. Instead of being encouraged, I realised that shortlisting would be the best I could hope for if I didn't improve radically. So I will not write anything again till I'm sure I can do better than I was doing before. Susan Hill is right. Notwithstanding the enormous number of books published, good writing is rare. Lets not pretend that ABC hides a wealth of undiscovered riches, because it doesn't. (What it possibly contains is some talented people who may go on to produce outstanding work in the future - a different thing.) Hill can't be blamed for wanting to publish only the finished article. (On my present schedule, I hope to be the finished article by about the age of ninety-four.)

Tue, 2005-10-11 00:44

#33

stormy_petrel

Dear Mr. Dotty, A fantastic sumission, Dotty, but we have to - unfortunately - reject it on this occasion due to its lack of comma after "now" at the start of your second paragraph. Thank you for your interest in ABCfaerytales and we wish you well in your future writing. Yours, Panda (eatingshootsnleaves)

Tue, 2005-10-11 14:00

#34

d.beswetherick

Dear Mr Panda, Now aged fifty one, I've had a few rejection slips in my time, but yours takes the biscuit. No wonder the publishing industry is in a parlous state, if you think there's anything wrong with that piece of punctuation. Call me bitter, but you can stuff your shoots and leaves right up your ellipsis. Regards. D. Beswetherick. And that will teach you to respond politely.

Tue, 2005-10-11 14:59

#35

tcook

But Bes, we miss your writing. A new hardcore faerie tale was long the highlight of my day. Please start again - if it's even better then I will jump around the room in a wild frenzy. Promise.

Tue, 2005-10-11 21:09

#36

stormy_petrel

Dot Dearie, Thank you for you letter in response to our rejection slip. We are sorry about the theft of the biscuit and will look into it - we take cyber-nibble stealing very seriously. We also note your objection to our comma problem. We agree that, when considering the modern use of English parlance, your sentence is correct. However, we feel the words "that I am" would have been helpful in that we would not have mistaken "aged fifty one" for a sub-clause. Yours affectionately, Panda... P.S. You might consider omitting the comma after "state" as it introduces a an uneccessary pause into your sentence. P.P.S. We are not allowed to get too familiar with our rejectees and, as such, will not be calling you Bitter.

Tue, 2005-10-11 21:13

#37

stormy_petrel

We also apologise for the extraneous 'a' in our last letter; this was due to incompetence on behalf of our typist.

Wed, 2005-10-12 19:47

#38

Jack Cade

"Lets not pretend that ABC hides a wealth of undiscovered riches, because it doesn't. (What it possibly contains is some talented people who may go on to produce outstanding work in the future - a different thing.)" While this is true, I feel the same could be said of most publisher's catalogues.

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