A Cherry too Far?

If the mark of good writing is how much response it elicits from its readers then this was very, very good.

There have been times on this site when this discussion would have dissolved into obscene name calling and I'm delighted that it hasn't - I would delete it if it had! Personally I don't think the poem deserved a cherry but it is quite good and I do understand why the Editor involved gave it a cherry. I also think that it makes some, admittedly slightly hackneyed, points. I don't believe that it denigrates Jesus or the vast majority of those that believe in him - it is clearly an attack on daft fundamentalists and not the religion itself. Mark - I do understand why you raised the issue and you have every right to do so but I do not intend to remove the poem or the cherry. Love and Peace to you all, The boss

I've read this whole post in one go. Very interesting. And Tony you are not the boss. I am. I give myself cherries before I even write anything. Incidentally, I've not read the poem that has got you all so worked up. Can't be bothered now. That is the prerogative of all readers.

Anyway if we are going to be so pityfully politically correct when we are creating we are going to be very dull. And I see the responsibility and consequences bit as very politically correct and like putting all your creativity in a little box with an etiquette on it. That's definitely not creativity. Not in my opinion. If you see Muhammed as a dog or whichever way you see Jesus it's up to you and you alone and if people want to burn your house down that is against the law- that is not freedom of "speech" but it may be a consequence and I wouldn't take responsibility for that in creating. I still think Lord Lucan's poem is straight and not blasfemous- it is a clear expression of some peoples hypocracy and yes being plain stupid and misunderstanding a religious message.

Celticman, you mean you haven't read my glorious work? What an impoverished life you're leading! Oh, and do share those cherries around a bit. ;) In case you haven't guessed yet, Lord Lucan IS Mark Brown. We're just trying to drum up a bit of extra readership.

Is God a God of love, a God of retribution or simply an excuse to hate each other? Isn't this just two opposing groups 'performing' for 'the media'; religious extremists engaging in a form of amplified verbal 'stones throwing' while, inexplicably, somehow imagining that they themselves are without sin? Free speech or defamation? Religion or bigotry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmqfrUIzy6w

Like it or not, it is free speech Hun. I am the wife of a deployed soldier, a supporter of gay rights, and a believer in God. Sooooo... lol needless to say the Westboro Baptist Church is certain I am heading to Hell. The one thing I am certain of though ? That type of absolute thinking is the reason why our political structures are falling apart, our educational systems are falling apart, our scientific structures are starting to be no longer trusted, children, women, and old people are being neglected, and abused, such as that. Hell Taken to its extremes, it is the reason peoples who do not look, act, or think like us are abused , neglected, and often killed period. And I don't blame any of this on GOD. As we discussed before Mangone. I blame it on people. God is simply an excuse for them to do what they do. It is the difference between USING something or someone, and supporting.

“And I don't blame any of this on GOD. As we discussed before Mangone. I blame it on people. God is simply an excuse for them to do what they do. It is the difference between USING something or someone, and supporting.” I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with the above Maggie! It’s not just God that gets used as an excuse for people’s inhumanity to others who don’t agree with them but God is the best excuse because He out-ranks everybody else. As you point out using a ’higher authority’ is one of the failings of human nature… It leads to claims by those who, overwhelmed by their own sense of importance, assure us that the ends justify the means, that they do what must be done for the betterment of the tribe, or the clan, or the country. The tradition of doing God’s work goes back at least as far as Abraham… Who, we can see from the Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham was recognised as the Patriarch of the Jews and hence of all the religions that sprang from their religion including Christianity and Islam. “The Book of Genesis narrative that records the life of Abraham presents his role as one that could only be fulfilled through a monotheistic covenant established between him and God. The Qur'an has stories about Abraham and his offspring that are similar to the Bible's. In Islam, Abraham is recognized as a prophet, patriarch, and messenger, archetype of the perfect Muslim, and reformer of the Kaaba. Yet few people can live up to Abraham’s standard be it Popes, or politicians, kings or Presidents. In fact it’s worth bearing in mind what Abraham’s position on torture was because it is diametrically opposed to that of the Bush (the younger) administration and it might not be a coincidence that Bush mentioned Hell when he was asked if he supported ‘water boarding’… he reportedly replied “Hell yes.” I wonder how many Christians, Muslims and Jews agree with the following excerpt from a Sunday School lesson. http://sundayschoolsources.com/lessons/OT/Genesis/AbrahamsSons.htm “Do the ends justify the means? God often asks us to participate is his plans, but that doesn't mean we can change his plans. We can't use any old means to achieve God's ends. The crusaders felt they could torture people into ‘converting’ to Christianity. Many people today feel they can worship, or obey, in whatever fashion they desire, as long as their ‘goal’ is to worship or obey. God wants ‘obedience more than sacrifice‘. He wants us to submit, and trust that his ways will accomplish his plans.” I would argue that it is the LIE that the ‘ends justify the means’ that has brought so much of modern Western life into conflict with itself. For many the mind has become the arbiter of the heart and the materialistic merit of the loathsome logic of the ‘ends justify the means’ has poisoned many souls turning them from Christians into Capitalists, from men into monsters, from trusters to terrorists!

Well, you made me smile FTSE... While I take your point I can't see that there is anything we could do or believe that could make God look ridiculous although I'm sure there are many who wish it may be so. Religion and God are connected but some religions like Buddhism and Taoism don't actually admit to having a God. Religion isn't for God it is a guide for His people... In the main most major religions are designed to help people find their way from the darkness to the light and stay there. Since God hasn't personally done many chat shows in the last few centuries modern religions are mostly by the people for the people and it seems to me that slowly, but surely, science, politics and decadence have eaten away at the spiritual core of the major organised religions as practiced in the West. I noticed that Rick Perry pointed out recently that what America needs is a good man not a glib man and I agree that all too often it is the empty heart with the clever voice that defeats the good heart with its honest voice. There are too many clever men who believe that religion is simply a sham, a charade for the stupid, and that morals are for morons... they can't see the alienation, the despair and the growing hopelessness that will lead to anarchy, because they are too dazzled by what they imagine is the reflection of their own brilliance... hubris, the path of the snake.

Hmmmm let me start by saying that the Bible was written down by man. But more importantly it was written in the context, framework if you will, of a specific time and place, and should be taken as such. Example - Yes... the Bible says being gay is wrong Now.. Taken at face value, we can persecute gays until the cows come home, Or... We can look a little deeper ? 99 percent of all the laws in the Bible ( Particularly the Old Testament ) were written with two things in mind. Longevity,and the continuation a very specific peoples. Being gay ( particularly in those times ) did little for procreation, and the continuation of believers. Following me so far ? And I do hope people understand that this train of thought I am expressing goes far beyond the scope of just homosexuality. This can be applied to many things in the Bible if you really give it some thought. Now here is another point I will make... You agree with the Bible, and think being gay is wrong ? Good No problem... But keep in mind the Bible also says to not eat pork. Soooooo.... Before you take the sausage ( so to speak ) out of someone else's mouth ? Take it out of yours. Follow the rules you feel necessary to live a good and decent life. But do NOT think that those rules apply to ABSOLUTELY ( and this is what I mean Mark by absolute thinking ) anyone else but YOU ! My Gran always said praying is our way of talking to God, and religion is God's way of talking to us. And he ain't having the same conversation with everyone. And really and truly why should he ? Are we all the same ? Hopefully that explains some of what I meant :)

Here is my, somewhat light hearted, theory on the role of religion and its purpose. I tend to see God as a benevolent king who, in His infinite wisdom, allows people to choose whether or not they wish to be His subjects. To be allowed to emigrate to Heaven people are asked to show that they are willing and capable of following God’s laws, even when doing so might result in suffering or hardship. In other words ‘life’ is our chance to prove to God that we are fit to live in his kingdom and that we are happy to accept His rules and that we are grateful for His benevolence. In a way ’life’ is just another exam but rather than simply effecting your job prospects or your social status it effects your role in eternity. I think the mistake that so many people make is to believe that they can fool God. They are so used to conning everyone else that at some stage they fall into the trap of conning themselves. The Tester whispers into their ear that God is such a good guy He won’t really hold it against them whatever they do. Once the sucker believes that then it doesn’t take many more whispers before they become convinced that the ’ends justify the means’ and little by little, as they pave their road with ‘good intensions’ they slide down the slippery slope into that cold place that freezes the heart and reduces everything to logic and profit and loss! So, what is religion? It’s simply a generalised statement of the rules and laws to which you must adhere if you wish to get your visa. So far as I know God doesn’t care too much about which religion you choose so long as you lead a life that demonstrates that you are a caring, moral person who will fit in well should you be granted a visa. The problem with all exams is that you can never be certain of the result. You might think you are going to ace it and then, too late, find out your visa application has been refused because you had been constantly contravening some little law you thought was unimportant. I notice that Rick Perry was booed the other day for defending free schooling for the children of illegal immigrants. Children don’t chose their parents. Surely such children are the responsibility of the land they live in. Doesn’t schooling make children more likely to fit in and embrace the American way? What sort of children will they end up being if they don’t get an education? I would argue that the Christian way, the way of love, would be to find some way of dealing with the problem of illegal aliens not punishing their children. If you want to build a wall then build a wall but walls keep people in as well as keeping people out. Yet who can criticize any country for requiring an entry visa if God Himself does the same :O)

"Maggie, many books have been written about how to live a good life. Once you factor out the folk tales, does the bible contain anything you can't find elsewhere? I'd like to make it clear that I have no objection to folk tales, nor any argumement with those who think the bible is poetic or worth reading for other reasons. No hidden agenda, just a straightforward query." Actually you and I are in close proximity wise on thoughts concerning the Bible. I agreed when Pope John Paul II said the all religions hold the seeds of truth. There are basic tenets that run through them all that even an atheist couldn't argue with, Do not murder, steal, lie, etc. The same can be said for each divine book as well. What I have done, concerning the Bible, is learn to understand it from a historical, and even scientific point of view. An example would be that I see the Old Testament as the/a written document of the oral histories of the Jews. Adam and Eve were not the first man and woman on the Earth. They were the first Jews, and Genesis explains metaphorically their birth into that religion. It is a high scientific probability that there was a large flood in the region of Noah during his time. ( Other places in the world have experienced these types of floods as well, hence the repeating of this story ) Now if you are an ancient man, and every where you look is flooded, wouldn't you come to the conclusion the whole world is ? These are just two examples of how I read the Bible. I already mentioned the manner in which ancient laws are perceived for me. Literalists amuse me . Because if we truly took the Bible literally, we would be beating our children damn near to death for being disrespectful, and still stoning wives for adultery. Not only do I think the Bible is not meant to be taken to the hilt, But under the more humane societal way of thinking we have evolved into, we can not, pure, and simple. Now what do I get out of the Bible ? Stories of hope, and endurance, perseverance, and belief in something better, that it can always be better. Signs that I am not alone. A context, and frame that I can place my morality, my faith in all that is good , and my humanity into. My principles are always growing, evolving, trying to improve, and for me the Bible is the book that accommodates that raising up if you will. One of my favorite quotes comes from Galileo. " God shall never be disproven, only clarified " I find that when people treat their "interpretations" as absolutes ( an oxymoron, if you ask me ) they leave no room for God to be clarified, understood even better. I can't imagine God liking that idea any more than I would. Who does not want to be fully understood ?

Interesting questions in a way FTSE and I have strived to continue in a light hearted vein while at the same time offering what I consider to be religiously valid responses. 'If you're right, the rules must be plain and simple ones that anybody can work out for themselves.' I'd say that most people quickly aquire a sufficiently developed conscience to be able to tell the difference between right and wrong... I would guess that if it were to be as logical as that then God, being very bright, would know when people had done something wrong knowing it was wrong as opposed to doing something wrong without realising it was - and judge accordingly. However, my personal belief is that what really counts in the end is where you end up compared to where you started. All your choices are steps in a particular direction and, in effect, take you closer or further from God. I see absolutely no reason to conclude that God's system for choosing who gets a visa should be a logical one - but I'm sure that it will be wise, fair and divinely just. 'One thing has always puzzled me: what does God get out of it? Even if he's as keen on humans as a pensioner on cats, does he really need six and a half billion pets?' You're judging by your own standards FTSE - why would God need to get something out of it? Thank goodness God doesn't see us as pets but as beings who He can share His love with... but of course it is highly unlikely that everyone will get a visa!

I hadn't heard of the Codex Sinaiticus until today but it seems that it is probably the world's oldest Bible. I found news about it by accident when I was searching through the BBC News archive. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7651105.stm "For 1,500 years, the Codex Sinaiticus lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain." "The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection." "The Codex contains two extra books in the New Testament. One is the little-known Shepherd of Hermas, written in Rome in the 2nd Century - the other, the Epistle of Barnabas. This goes out of its way to claim that it was the Jews, not the Romans, who killed Jesus, and is full of anti-Semitic kindling ready to be lit. "His blood be upon us," Barnabas has the Jews cry." "The Codex - and other early manuscripts - omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief." None of this makes much difference to me but for those who do take the Bible literally it does add weight to Maggie's argument - 'Not only do I think the Bible is not meant to be taken to the hilt, But under the more humane societal way of thinking we have evolved into, we can not, pure, and simple.' As suggested in the article if you're going to argue that the Bible is the word of God which Bible do you mean? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interestingly, I have always felt that if there is a Hell it would be a cold place and not a pit of fire. Checking out the Gospel of Barnabus, http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/154.html?task=view ,I found... "Thaddaeus answered: `O master, when the sense leaveth the life, a man hath not life.' Jesus answered: `This is not true, because man is deprived of life when the soul departeth; because the soul returneth not any more to the body, save by miracle. But sense departeth by reason of fear that it receiveth, or by reason of great sorrow that the soul hath. For the sense hath God created for pleasure, and by that alone it liveth, even as the body liveth by food and the soul liveth by knowledge and love. This [sense] is now rebellious against the soul, through indignation that it hath at being deprived of the pleasure of paradise through sin. Wherefore there is the greatest need to nourish it with spiritual pleasure for him who willeth not that it should live of carnal pleasure. Understand ye? Verily I say unto you, that God having created it condemned it to hell and to intolerable snow and ice; because it said that it was God; but when he deprived it of nourishment, taking away its food from it, it confessed that it was a slave of God and the work of his hands. And now tell me, how doth sense work in the ungodly? Assuredly, it is as God in them: seeing that they follow sense, forsaking reason and the law of God. Whereupon they become abominable, and work not any good.'" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I've no idea what to make of this... http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/145.html?task=view It is certainly the most shocking and unexpected thing I have ever read that is claimed to have been in the Bible!!! I can't actually believe it! Not that it is impossible but just that it would surely be more famous, or imfamous, depending on what you choose to believe... Ah, it is a Muslim site run by the The Sabr Foundation - well that explains a lot :O) Still, I find it interesting anyway does anyone know if there are other, non Muslim sources of similar texts? Ah, good old Wiki! "This work (The Gospel Of Banabus) is a book depicting the life of Jesus, and claiming to be by Jesus' disciple Barnabas, who in this work is one of the twelve apostles. Two manuscripts are known to have existed, both dated to the late 16th century and written respectively in Italian and in Spanish-- although the Spanish manuscript is now lost, its text surviving only in a partial 18th-century transcript. Barnabas is about the same length as the four Canonical gospels put together (the Italian manuscript has 222 chapters), with the bulk being devoted to an account of Jesus' ministry, much of it harmonized from accounts also found in the canonical gospels. In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity. It should not be confused with the surviving Epistle of Barnabas, nor with the surviving Acts of Barnabas." Also from Wiki... "The Epistle of Barnabas (Greek: Επιστολή Βαρνάβα, Hebrew: איגרת בארנבס‎) is a Greek epistle containing twenty-one chapters, preserved complete in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus where it appears at the end of the New Testament. It is traditionally ascribed to Barnabas who is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, though some ascribe it to another Apostolic Father of the same name, a "Barnabas of Alexandria", or simply attribute it to an unknown early Christian teacher. A form of the Epistle 850 lines long is noted in the Latin list of canonical works in the 6th century Codex Claromontanus. It is not to be confused with the Gospel of Barnabas." I can't resist adding this bit of the Wiki piece which I cannot help but find amusing... "The Epistle reinterprets many of the laws of the Torah. For example, the prohibition on eating pork is not to be taken literally, but rather forbids the people to live like swine, who supposedly grunt when hungry but are silent when full: likewise, the people are not to pray to God when they are in need but ignore him when they are satisfied. Similarly, the prohibition on eating rabbit means that the people are not to behave in a promiscuous manner, and the prohibition on eating weasel is actually to be interpreted as a prohibition of oral sex, based on the mistaken belief that weasels copulate via the mouth."

"I hadn't heard of the Codex Sinaiticus until today but it seems that it is probably the world's oldest Bible. I found news about it by accident when I was searching through the BBC News archive. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7651105.stm" Clarify that statement Hun ;) It is the oldest CHRISTIAN Bible. The Old Testament/Torah is older. But yes you are quite correct otherwise. There are several versions of the Christian Bible, and even more religious texts that either made it in to some versions, or did not make it in at all. ( The Gnostic texts being the most well known, and what many believe the Codex to be, a fully conceived Gnostic Bible ) There are contradictions between the many varieties, as well as contradictions to be found in our latest versions as well. Go figure huh ? *smiles* These books ( and I believe that includes most of them at the very least ) were divinely inspired. They, in and of themselves are not divine. Between the "evolving" of an standard ideology, and multiple interpretations of previously held beliefs, seriously how can they be ? That is the clinical explanation. lol Now my faith based explanation ? Do I take any major issue with these contradictions in text ? No... As I stated before, God is simply have different conversations with different people. I know the conversation he is having with me. I am NOT so arrogant as to believe that my way is the only way. So I do not concern myself with the conversation he is having with others.

Oh, how the world changes FTSE. I can still remember when Spam was popular. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE By the way FTSE your Spammer doesn't seem to have given up and is selling his Uggg boots etc. as bozi007 - and although he started here http://www.abctales.com/forum/2011/03/09/re-wh His Spam is spreading faster than a Texas wildfire through the Discuss Writing forum! I hadn't considered non Christian Bibles... It's amazing, you can think you know a lot about something and suddenly realise you've only scratched the surface. Still, I really enjoyed my roller coaster ride of discovery yesterday. Thanks for your clarification Maggie!

I don’t know if you ever get a sudden flash of ‘realisation’ when it suddenly dawns on you that you have a totally different concept of something to what can seem to be the majority of other people. I had just such a ‘realisation’ earlier this morning thinking about Maggie’s belief that we have ‘civilised’ to such an extent that we need to view the bible from a different perspective. I suddenly had a ‘vision’ of FTSE talking the place of Simon Cowell in a new version of the X Factor… Finding God. A series of religious Prophets from Buddha to Zoroaster would perform a short musical ‘opera’ outlining their religious philosophy and the viewers could vote for which ever god was represented by their favourite prophet performance. I use ‘god’ since several religions don’t actually have a God and so it might be that people end up choosing a prophet that supports a pantheon or a ‘collective consciousness’. Of course, once the X Factor had whittled down the contestants then the format would change to a debate where the prophets would be asked a series of questions and be judged on how they answer them. Naturally, the prophets would be expected to negotiate with their respective gods to bring their methods of ruler ship closer to a Democratic process where god puts forward his ideas every Sunday on primetime TV and the world votes. Naturally the chosen god should be forbidden to use his super natural powers without permission from a specially selected committee who would represent Global Capitalism - just to make sure that the dollar could continue to say ‘In god we trust’. If the chosen god has a Paradise then it must be run in a logical way and be subject to a scientifically sound statistical selection of “What the people want this week’. :O) Anybody have any more ideas as to how we can choose our god? I’m an old fashioned guy and I’ll stick to the old fashioned method where I don’t choose God but I pray He will choose me!

"I had just such a ‘realisation’ earlier this morning thinking about Maggie’s belief that we have ‘civilised’ to such an extent that we need to view the bible from a different perspective" Let's put it this way Mangone... To take the Bible in a literal sense would look something like the extremist mentalities of Middle East, maybe even worse. Enough said ? :)

I must be one of the one percenters too FTSE because I don’t care what something is called I just recognise rubbish when I see it... like, dark energy and dark matter make up over 95% of the Universe. Still, I suppose if I'm wrong we should be thanking God that we were born in the less than 5% of the Universe that wasn’t dark eh? :O) “More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5%” http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

What I mean Spartacard specifically is we can de-evolve back to tribal customs that actual permeate the Bible ( and predate it to be matter a fact ) A prime example to show would be female circumcision ( I prefer to call it what it is, castration ) That is a "tribal" custom that predates the Quran, and yet is preformed today, and the Quran is USED to justify it. Stoning, slavery, absolute annihilation of enemies, and other such matters not only discussed in the Bible, but also endorsed would be put into full affect if the Bible was to be taken literally. These are the things I meant

Nope .... It isn't I understand the practice of many of these "laws" and customs in the time they were performed. Many actually served a purpose in terms of structure and order back then. They simply serve no purpose NOW. So what do we do with them ? We understand their time, and place and EVOLVE beyond them. This is how I think of it. If God was ok, and satisfied with these ancient laws he would have never sent Jesus Christ, or Buddha, or such as Ghandi, and Mother Theresa. He wants us to become something better than what we started out as.

"You have to take the bible 100% literally, there is no room for allegory!" Why Darlin ? Cause you said so ? *smiles* No I don't.... and I can still believe in God. I can still read holy texts, and understand the "decency" within them. I can read them as I do. That they are ancient man's journey toward something divine.

"Stoning, slavery, war, female 'genitalia editing' are fundamental aspects of Jeudo-Christian teaching and doctrine!" In ANCIENT Judeo-Christian beliefs ? Yes they were. They were also aspects of Sumerian culture which is the birthplace of the three "Abraham" religions, and also predates all three religions. With one exception ! Female 'genitalia editing" ( what a lovely politically correct way of describing a young girls clitoris being sawed off ) That practice comes directly from Northern Africa, and worked its way up, having very little to do with religion period. It was accommodated into the religions under the guise of "protecting" a girls modesty.

What a disagreeable lot you humans are! If all I knew about your species came from reading this thread I wouldn't have a very high opinion of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision "Asim Zaki Mustafa argues that the common attribution of the procedure to Islam is unfair because it is a much older phenomenon.[18] While individual Muslims, Christians, and Jews practise FGM, it is not a requirement of any religious observance. Judaism requires circumcision for boys, but does not allow it for girls.[19] Islamic scholars have said that, while male circumcision is a sunna, or religious obligation, female circumcision is preferable but not required, and several have issued a fatwa against Type III FGM.[20]"

"What a disagreeable lot you humans are! If all I knew about your species came from reading this thread I wouldn't have a very high opinion of you." LOL ! I suspect God doesn't have a very high opinion of us My Dear ;) But God love himself, I suspect he does have hope :)

Maybe you should just get some religion and lighten up Lucan. If you think the posters on this thread are disagreeable then you haven’t had much thread experience. A few disagreements but in the main people are discussing the things they don’t agree about because they approximately agree on all the rest. :O) Perhaps you are confusing the light hearted banter and occasional bits of dark satire with lack of brotherly love which is easily done if you don't feel as though you're part of the group and can't feel the love.

I just don't get it? Who, what is God? Is it a he or she? Aren't we living a bit too far away from the time the Bible was supposed to be written and when Jesus lived? Isn't it all a bit of old fashioned nonsense. I have never been religious and yet I haven't missed it? Why is there such a difference in faith? Who says Allah is the truth? Who says God is for real? I have never met him/her and never will- how the hell am I supposed to believe in him/her? Because the Bible says so? Why don't I believe in Allah or Buddha ? I don't and I have survived. If it is all up to free will then it could only be imagination and self-suggestion! I'll never understand.

"I just don't get it? Who, what is God? Is it a he or she? Aren't we living a bit too far away from the time the Bible was supposed to be written and when Jesus lived? Isn't it all a bit of old fashioned nonsense. I have never been religious and yet I haven't missed it? Why is there such a difference in faith? Who says Allah is the truth? Who says God is for real? I have never met him/her and never will- how the hell am I supposed to believe in him/her? Because the Bible says so? Why don't I believe in Allah or Buddha ? I don't and I have survived. If it is all up to free will then it could only be imagination and self-suggestion! I'll never understand." Highhat You are saying some wonderfully valid things here. Hun I do NOT believe in God because of the Bible. Hell the name God is simply the name I have given something that has been with me since I was a child. The Bible shows me people who have walked this same path, and how they dealt with this un-provable thing called faith. That does not mean I am required to walk their specific path. I don't care what name you give to faith in something better than yourself. Personally I don't think that thing cares either. Personify it how you wish. As I said before it is having different conversations with different people.

I quite like the word Mangoni, Sparta - as you say it does sound Italian and quite delicious in a spicy tomato pasta with olives and a sprinkling of oregano kind of way. I may adopt it as a nickname.

Mangone, you misunderstand my post. But Mags understands and that's all that matters. I worship her and can't wait for her to write a book to tell me where my life went all pear-shaped. Spartarcad is a nit. His name doesn't even make sense. I feel spiritually impoverished every time I see it.

"Either way a few rats bit the cheese on the trap for awhile!" I used to have two adorable pet rats. Lovely, charming creatures. Don't insult them by comparing them to humans ;) *chuckling*

"Mangone, you misunderstand my post. But Mags understands and that's all that matters. I worship her and can't wait for her to write a book to tell me where my life went all pear-shaped." Get a life, and figure that mess out yourself Darlin ! LMAO

Thanks Maggie- that was a good explanation- faith in something other than yourself. I would say goodness of man, kindness and love, caring etc not necessairly the bible or God. That is what I have known since I was a child! Thanks ;)Pia

why is this thread so long? Have I missed something. Had the cherry crisis led to meltdown and begat the second coming? (Sorry if I offended you non-begetters out there)

Strangely, despite all these posts about religion made to this thread we have only just reached the central issue... religions are based on FAITH! I suppose many people simply accept the faith of their parents and believe that if they are basically a good person and go to church or temple regularly, or even occasionally, that they will go to a better place when they die. Having said that, in my opinion, it is much harder to keep your faith in this modern materialistic world where, for many people, cynicism and disappointment rule. The modern motto is "If it seems to be too good to be true then it probably is!". For many people who have been constantly let down, their hopes continuously dashed as they look for something to believe in, they retreat into Cynicism - the last refuge of the disillusioned. To make matters worse modern science seems to have forgotten that its role is to tell us what is and not to speculate on what might be. Newton wasn't very happy with his theory of gravity because, like Einstein later, he didn't like the idea of force at a distance, that some 'magical moon beams' from a distant sun somehow convinces the planets to follow their orbits. Newton being a good, no a great, scientist simply gave us the laws that he believed ruled the heavens he did not speculate as to why the forces behind these laws worked... only on how he believed we could predict the result. Einstein later suggested that Newton's Laws were almost right and that the 'magic moon beam effect' that Newton didn't like was actually a local effect caused by mass curving space-time. Einstein's theories allowed more accurate predictions than Newton's and those that could be tested seemed to confirm his theory and so Relativity became the new paradigm - at least in theory. The average Western Joe either tends to be convinced that science has proved that God doesn't exist and that everything is just an improbable accident involving a Big Bang and survival of the fittest or at least to pretend that he does so that he isn't jeered at by the smug, self satisfied, patronising, pratts who believe that modern science is the New Religion that has given us miracles we can believe in and will allow us to create our own Paradise without the need for imaginary gods and 'pie in the sky'. These pratts seem to think that repeating parrot fashion the latest 'scientific' speculation makes them clever… that 'E equals MC squared' is a magical mantra that will transform mankind from intelligent apes into Lords of the Universe. So, we see that modern science has become a religion because so many people have FAITH in it. Like most faiths it has its own dogma and like most faiths it pretends to be open minded to other religions while constantly finding fault with their beliefs. Okay, so, in a way modern religions are fundamentally the light you choose to live your life by. There is no longer a need for a God, no need for prayers, just a faith that believing in it will benefit you in the long run. I suppose that those who believe in the divine power of the stock market are true followers of Capitalism. Maybe even those who believe that pretending that humans can actually invent, implement and maintain a fair and just method of organising themselves might be true followers of Communism. What I'm trying to point out is that 'materialism', selfishness and greed have conspired to make the so called 'Civilised' world a place where money is more important than morals, where alienation and corruption spread like a plague - because society depends on morality and that very morality stems from spiritual values that are being eroded by the denial of the spirit. It seems to me that because we cannot understand the Universe as a whole we have fallen into the trap of dissecting it into little pieces and, in our hubris, telling ourselves that we understand the Universe now without realising that it is not a machine which can be put together from bits - the Universe is, like the life it contains, not just the sum of its parts but a wonderful and inexplicable miracle that we are all blessed to be a part of. Why is it so difficult for so many people to say "Thank You!"? Did they create the Universe? What did they do to deserve the gift of life? Even science admits that people who are grateful tend to live happier lives - so what's the problem? Ask yourself why it is so difficult to admit that there may be a Superior Being who you should thank... If you're honest with yourself it may well open the door...

Hmmmm I have many things to say after reading everything. Mark - Let me ask you a question please ? Do you believe that your "meeting" with God is the ONLY way to meet God, and if the person does not meet God in that fashion they are going to hell ? Mangone - Let me let you in on something about the "Big Bang Theory" Darlin ok ? Meet Georges Lemaître. The creator of the "Big Bang Theory" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre I hope you can take notice of what he is wearing. Yes...George Lemaitre was also known as Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, a priest... When Father Lemaitre presented his theory to the then present Pope, the Pope was quoted as saying " This is the most perfect explanation of Genesis that has ever been presented " Blighters - Gonna tell you a story ok ? Nothing really super new, things I have mentioned in other threads. When I was 2 and a half, my mother gave up her parental rights to her children, and ran away. My Da , who had just got out of the Army ( and frankly was a bit of a mess ) was deemed unfit to raise us by the courts on 3 grounds. He was a man, and there fore could not mother. He was a long haul truck driver ( rarely home ) and he was a drinker. The man came and got his children every Sat, Sun, and for 2 week vacations in the summer, and winter for the next ten years until he could bring us home. In the meantime though ? We lived in a state run orphanage. There were "religious" people working there in several different capacities. Some were decent enough but honestly ? Most were out and out zealots. At the age of five I was placed in a bath tub full of straight hot water because I was a bad girl, and needed my sins washed away. I remember my skin burning, becoming puffy, and flaming red, screaming, as this women placed her hand on my head announcing to the other little girls not to be afraid . It was simply the holy ghost coming over me. Needless to say I developed an intense distrust for the Holy Ghost that day. By the time I was 6 I could reach in, turn that hot water on myself, get in it, and not make a peep. So much for THAT Holy Ghost Huh ? One day I was sitting under an apple tree with my Da and he was reciting a psalm to me. He got to the part " He leads me beside still waters. He restoreth my soul " It dawned on me that day that that ecstatic mentality was not necessary. Every time after that, that I was abused or hurt ( and there were many times ) I went to those still waters, stared those assholes down, and gave them God's silence, the way he taught me to do it, knowing he was on my side, not theirs. Those "still waters" preserved all that was good in me, that believed in a better day, a better place, and a better way. and as Forrest would say... " That is all I got to say about that " ;)